WTF is happening in London?!

[AngeloMysterioso]

In the last few days alone, there’s been a stabbing outside Liverpool St station, two moped muggers punched a women to the ground for her handbag and phone, and Michael McIntyre was forced out of his car and had his watch taken off him by another pair who smashed his window in whilst his child was in the back!

Even where I live in a pretty boring zone 4 suburb two teenage boys were stabbed a few streets away last week.

I know it’s never been the safest of cities but it feels like it’s got so much worse in the last year or so. What the hell is happening?

And it has got worse. For the first time in history our murder rate is higher than NEw York.

No, it isn't. In February and March London's homicide rate was higher for those months, but for the year to the end of March New York still came out ahead, and since then it has reverted to the higher rate. Last year their homicide rate was almost three times higher than London's. Moreover, London's definition of homicide is wider than New York's, so our statistics will capture cases that NY wouldn't register as homicides.

Decriminalise drugs but actually put resources into drug addiction and you'll eradicate a lot of problems. Plus you'll free up a huge amount of prison space.

Warm weather and the gradual erosion of parenting.

Nulabour invited people in from the third world to ‘rub the right’s noses in diversity’ - well that diversity is rubbing now.....

I’m sorry. That’s a stupid argument. “Violence and thuggery are caused by inequality, we know this as it’s correlated”

First thing - correlation isn’t causation. You need a plausible mechanisms of operation and linkages so let’s deal with some...

Secondly - people don’t stab other people because they think they are hard done by and society is unfair. They stab people as they want to be seen as powerful amongst their group. They stab people as they want to gain respect amongst their group. They stab people as it’s seen as a demonstration of power over others.

If anything the stabby brigade are showing how unequal we are to them. Kids from my son’s school don’t get mugged because of inequality of iPhones. They get mugged as they won’t fight back and don’t carry knives (and have to wear a uniform that effectively says “target” on)

Thirdly - they are not stabbing as “they have nothing and no opportunities”. It’s LONDON ffs. People travel from all over the world with nothing but their skills and wits to live in a London and make something of themselves. If you’re a teenage boy in London you don’t have to travel so far. Those boys choose to bunk off school, to not get qualifications. They see others with money (drug money clearly, or power as they are stabby stabby types) and want that easy path rather than the hard one. It isn’t helped by insta-celebrities showing that posing is a viable route to riches instead of hard graft. That’s not driven by inequality, it’s sriven by the shallow nature of many people, see Love Island, BB, Ex on the beach, real hosuewives, something stupid in essex etc etc etc etc

Finally - stop and search was effectively ended as it targeted those carrying knives, typically young black men, and Bangladeshi boys to a slightly lesser extent. The fear of being caught with a knife stopped knives being carried. A whole bunch of do-gooders complained that S&S was a racist policy by the racist police so our mayor decided to stop it. No risk of carrying a knife means more knives. You died? Mostly young black -aspiring footballers- men, but their right to carry a knife wasn’t infringed.

And then we get to moped crime. London is learning that allowing thuggery negates more thuggery as thugs do what they do unconstrained by societal rules.

Inequality has nothing to do with this.

Of course inequality plays a part. Whenever people bang on about people making poor choices or not being willing to work hard etc they ignore the millions upon millions of people in the UK that do work hard ever day and always have done but still can't make ends meet let alone have extra for a holiday or whatever.

When you're young and see that stretching in front of you and know that no matter how hard you work you'll only be an unexpected illness or redundancy away from losing your job and home and trying to subsist on benefits while society treats you like scum; you don't feel too positive about the future.

I hate to point this out , but the government wanted to put a stop to stop and search long before the mayor was even in power . They were the ones issuing ‘ guidance ‘ about using stop and search ( basically don’t do it ) back in 2012 and 2014 . Sadiq Khan wasn’t mayor until 2016 . Unless of course you’re blaming Boris ?

plomin I'm not blaming Boris, or Sadique. I'm blaming Theresa May, who was then home secretary, for ending stop and search.

Hibble , no I know you weren't , but Wisedad was ( bloody phone wont let me do that bold thing ! )

Many people live with inequality, but they don’t go around stabbing people. The stabbers lack common human decency.

Good points @WiseDad

Many years ago I was coming back home with my then DP, from a friend's house. A group of 6, big 6' burly blokes (one of which I knew well), all pulled my ex off his bike and really laid into him.

I saw red, and dumped my bike on the opposite side of the road, where I had got to before turning to see where he was.

I simply saw a vulnerable guy (ex has spina bifida and is steadier on his bike than his feet) being set on and that was when my blood started boiling.

I stormed over, not fearing for my own safety, and laid into every single one of those blokes. I was so furious (although I didn't let much of my temper go as I would have been doing time for murder), that I left every single one of them needing hospital treatment, varying from surgery to one needing over 20 stitches. We're talking knock-outs (I used the bent legs of 2 to lever myself up to knee both in the head, knocking them both out), broken jaws, wrists, eye sockets and noses, dislocations, large deep cuts, cracked bones and extremely deep bruising. One managed to leg it down the road, and had I caught him, I would have finished off the rest of his hiding. I just wasn't giving up disabling the blokes until my DP was safe to get away.

I got away with a black eye, deep bruising on my arms and legs and a few cuts. The black eye was a right steaker, but a few days later, I got the nickname "The Murderous Midget"

None of them were willing to go to the police because they thought that the cops wouldn't believe them. 6 burly men who could easily overpower me, but failed. The police probably would find that very hard to believe.

Anyway, my moral is, that no matter who tries to attack me, or any member of my family, I will retaliate forcefully. If that lands me in prison for protecting my own, then I'm happy to do time.

This thread is fascinating.
My 2p worth is I think decriminalisation of drugs and making them safe, taxable and for revenue to be made from them is a great idea. Middle class coke before cheese course people could go and buy it in fancy shops like a Cuban cigar and working class kids who want a bag of Mandy could get it otc in Superdrug.

Govt makes cash off it, cops need less bother with it, nobody gets given the wrong chemical compound and the NHS has less stab victims to deal with as the gangs would be effectively not about drug trade anymore.

Reading about "bagging " really saddened me. Plus it made me think how much that would cost the NHS for the rest of the baggee's lifetime.

Recently hasn't Portugal decriminalised drugs and found it's had loads of beneficial knock on effects? I know Sydney has from making prostitution legal in licences and regulated brothels - effectively removing pimps and making sure sexual health is a priority

I have no answers to any of this but lived in centralish (zone 2) London for 15 years and never got mugged, abused or treated badly by anyone other than the usual crap of commuters getting uppity with each other. Someone attempted to rob me blatantly in broad daylight in Barcelona but I managed to keep hold of my camera and thumped the guy so he legged it. (Maybe it's my Viking blood that scares would be muggers off me)

Did get burgled once in London and a very fit copper came that night and was all Ray Winstone and powerful which I thought was pretty good in the horrible circumstances. I heard about some terrible crimes and there were often taped off bits and gang killings apparently but the estate I lived on (mix of ex-la and la housing) had a warden that would keep an eye on everything then their wage was cut and funnily enough kids started to pee in the lifts and run a bit wild. I do think boots on the ground and youth workers, community officers etc really help.... but then being Scandinavian I am the leftyist of the lefties!!!

Yesterday I was listening to something about how local journalism has almost dried up so lobbying for local issues has too, as a result. Like, if there was still a Westminster & Chelsea Gazette or whatever, Grenfell Tower fire concerns would have been reported on ages ago because there had been a tower residents group that kept complaining about power surges etc to the council but getting nowhere. Had there been local newspapers still around there would be more of a paper trail of people taking action and getting more heard - is what the article was saying. But everyone has the Metro & standard free paper in London now so there's no market for a local paper you pay for

I dunno. More love needed for all.

What's bagging please?

Urban dictionary isn't giving me any answers that seem likely....

Bagging means stabbing someone in the guts so they need a colostomy bag. For life

I hate the tolerance shown to criminals here and the idea that more gentle cuddles and understanding and money will stop them. They’re thugs who understand might is right and the state is weak and the citizens around are sheep for them to prey on.

Bleating “inequality” like a sheep means you fundamentally misunderstand human psychology.

Get them when they are young with youth and child intervention otherwise only a tiny minority turn into useful citizens.

Breakdown of traditional families not mentioned yet. Anyone care to say that has no effect? After all a top family court judge said traditional nuclear families are not the best way of raising children. (Two Parents regardless of sexuality better than one imho)

I'm blaming Theresa May, who was then home secretary, for ending stop and search.
And why did she stop it? Because of all the do-gooders who claimed it was racist!! Jeez, if she'd kept it you'd be complaining that she'd been racist as Home Sec. Anyone would think you just wanted any excuse to bash her

Thanks WiseDad

Criminal penalties seem useless but in an overpopulated world I don't know what can be done.

Wow, a fair lot of moral panic here.

The murder rate in London was higher than it was last year for 20 of the last 27 years. It actually decreased 27% between 2003 and 2008 from 204 to 148. It has increased in recent years but officially London is still safer than it was in previous years.

I also note everyone is not noting that violent crime has increased country wide, nearly trebling in Manchester and a 13.8% increase in Liverpool.

Stop and search was racist, with black people 8 times more likely to be stopped than white ( despite white people being more likely to buy and consume class a drugs), whilst only 1% of Stop and search leading to an arrest ( up to 15% in 2015/2016 under stricter rules).

Teresa May was crucified for stop and search. Now it seems that stopping it was a mistake too.

Can't stand the woman, but it needs to be pointed out.

The reason btw that you hear more about the crime in London is that we now have 24 hour rolling news and the internet available all the time. News stories get old quickly.

In 1990 when there were 180 murders in London ( 50 more than 2017) you didn't hear about it as much because they were reported in local news, not national.

But people hear about it more so they don't "feel safe", well the level of zombie attacks is at an all time zero, but fear of zombies is at an all time high.

and "inequality doesn't cause higher crime"?

Well that would be contrary to the vast body of research into the issue? Hmmm, confirmation bias abounds here.

WiseDad

I hate the tolerance shown to criminals here and the idea that more gentle cuddles and understanding and money will stop them. They’re thugs who understand might is right and the state is weak and the citizens around are sheep for them to prey on.

Bleating “inequality” like a sheep means you fundamentally misunderstand human psychology.

Nothing but applause for those sad but truthful observations.

I hate the right wing reactionary rubbish on here, no one is showing tolerence to criminals, just identifying that there are causes of crime, and deprivation and inequality are certainly those.

The right wingers just get stroppy cause its their policies which lead to increased crime.

Bleating “inequality” like a sheep means you fundamentally misunderstand human psychology.

And claiming that inequality has nothing to do with criminal behaviour also means you fundamentally misunderstand human psychology.

I don't understand why it has to be a simple choice between punishment or prevention rather than a combination of the two. Would it not be possible to offer all children a decent shot at life AND punish those who choose criminal behaviour?!

Police cuts are a factor. So is the the ceasing of "Stop and Search"

SaS was stopped due the offence it caused. Well stabbing people offends me so reinstate SaS as soon as possible.