...to ask why the NHS funds IVF?

[moofeatures]

I promise I'm neither an (intentionally) goady fucker, nor Katie Hopkins.

But.

Following on from a recent thread about there being a perception that public money grows on trees, I'd like to ask your stance on the NHS funding IVF.

Now, before I get flamed for my insensitivity, let me explain that I myself was diagnosed with ovarian failure in my 20s. I am still of an age where I'd meet the criteria for NHS IVF funding, which would be my only way to have a biological child. I initially grieved for this as I always assumed I'd be pregnant one day, but also from day 1 of my diagnosis I've felt that artificial reproductive hormone therapy/IUI/IVF falls outside the remit of what the NHS should provide as it serves no medically therapeutic purpose.

The logical response to my argument is: "if the only option for IVF is to privately fund, then you're depriving less affluent people the chance to become parents", which is both true and a shame... but is it the NHS's problem? Really, it's the infertility which took away that choice - and it is a choice, not a right... at least in my opinion.

Am I alone in feeling this way?

@Don’tMentionTheWar

Can we also stop funding maternity leave? I know it's not from the NHS budget, but if having children is a choice...

Someone asked about why there isn't the same argument about funding things like investigations into recurrent miscarriages. I think it is because people see a sad and very tangible loss, but do not understand that people suffering from infertility grieve too.

I cannot, in words, explain the heart-break my husband and I feel daily; it is a grief that never leaves. It does not get easier, it gets worse as more time is lost. I feel that pain when I see a family in the supermarket. I feel it when an advert for baby products appears. I feel it when I see my parents, knowing they won’t have grandchildren. I feel it when I give my seat to the pregnant woman on the bus. I feel it when I question my value and self-worth as ‘not a mum’. It is a feeling that will never ease – it does intensify.

I have fought hard and passionately to become a mother, and I know that if the opportunity ever did arise, my husband and I would make great parents, but that decision has been taken away from us – not just by our infertility diagnosis, but by the CCG when they made the decision to remove the most cost and clinically effective treatment for us and other patients.

I will not get to see my son’s first steps, or my daughter’s first day at school. I will not get to see my son’s first day at University or my daughter’s wedding day. I will not get to meet my grandchildren. I will not be able to fulfil, what I feel is, my purpose in life. Instead, I ask myself ‘Will I always feel social exclusion? Will we be lonely when we reach old age? Who will we leave the house to when we pass?’. Not easy questions and far from the happy life that some take for granted. However, this doesn’t just impact on me. Infertility directly impacts 1 in 6 couples, with a wider impact on friends and family too.

Some of the comments on this thread had been callous and vile.

Its fine is you don't want a small proportion of the NHS budget to go to treatment, but don't expect me to be happy to pay for your children's upbringing and your maternity care when I'm saving £12k to even have a single chance of conception.

Because it’s caused by an illness frequently. It is treating a symptom of a condition. Often having a hurty foot or feeling tired all the time or men who can’t get it up is not an ‘illness’ in the same way infertility isn’t, but stops you from living your life in the way you wish. People are treated for things that might stop them playing sport or going hill walking or watching films or listening to the radio. Frequently these are just symptoms and not an ‘illness’ either. Having your ears syringed doesn’t treat an illness. They still do it.

But because it largely impacts women the most it gets sidelined.

And because so many people know they will never need it, it’s one of the first things to be cut and limited. Because people are selfish.

Exactly apple. If they want maternity leave they should just save up. Ditto tax credits. (I do not think this but the logic is the same).

But of course all the people saying cut it won’t want this done because they know they might need it.

As I said. Selfish.

@dancingtothebeat - they really are! I would never actually want to see those things cut, but I would also never say to someone 'oh, you're having your first/second/third child? Have you not thought about the Cancer budget?'

Totally agree with regard to the grief of infertility

Coming to terms with childlessness has been a much more traumatic experience of grief for me than the grief of losing my beloved Mum. Her death was a devastating loss, there is an enormous hole in our family left by her absence. I miss her every day. Yes, she was taken too soon (early 60s), but we are lucky enough to have had wonderful memories of a life well lived, and to have benefited from her love and wisdom.My family grieve her loss, but we have cherished memories of the time we had with her.

With childlessness, we have nothing visible to grieve. We are grieving the loss of hope, the loss of memories we never had the chance to make, the loss of a life we hoped to live, and likely never will. I was able to accept my Mum's passing because there was a certainty about it - she was born, she lived, she died, I mourn her loss, but she is gone and I know she will never come back. The pain of childlessness doesn't have the same certainty - you live in limbo of perpetual grief with no foreseeable resolution. And people always want to tell you about the unicorn stories of the miracle children - their brother's hairdresser's girlfriend's neighbour's secretary who had been trying for 17 years and had 13 cycles and 9 miscarriages and she had blocked tubes and he had one bollock and a low sperm count and they stopped trying and went on the adoption list and went on holiday and relaxed and got drunk and OMG they have triplets

So how can you ever truly accept being childless when you can never truly rid yourself of hope. You can't ever move on.

When we reached the end of the road with our treatment, DH and I were talking about coming to terms with saying out loud 'we can't have children', and that sadly we would have to accept that I wouldn't get the same acknowledgement of bereavement as when I say 'my mum died', that there would be no recognition of the fact that they were both deeply painful losses.

Yes @bananafish81. Saying we can't have children, usually gets the head nod, or the 'just adopt', or 'my friend was told that but still fell pregnant.' I want to say the classic ODFOD.

Saying about the loss of a person, seems to warrant a much more human response.

Relating to my past post, why do we always go to cancer budgets with IVF? Why don't we compare the costs to something like wart or verruca removal?

@bananafish81 and those holiday miracle stories wind me up. Like we could actually afford a decent holiday when you're saving for IVF. These people have no clue.

I think we need to start realistically managing people’s expectations better. These days, most seem to think that any woman who wants one should be able to have (i.e. give birth to) a child. Medical science has come a long way, but sometimes this is just not possible. IVF has quite a low success rate anyway.

Also, people are so impatient (yes, I know the medical profession say to start investigations if no pregnancy occurs within one year of trying), but I know 3 people who have gone through failed IVF treatment only to have an unaided conception, and consequently have at least one child within 1-5 years of failed IVF. Maybe the advice should be changed to offer interventions if no pregnancy occurs within 3 years.

Also, people are so impatient (yes, I know the medical profession say to start investigations if no pregnancy occurs within one year of trying), but I know 3 people who have gone through failed IVF treatment only to have an unaided conception, and consequently have at least one child within 1-5 years of failed IVF. Maybe the advice should be changed to offer interventions if no pregnancy occurs within 3 years.

Do you think those medical guidelines are invented for fun, or to please 'impatient' people? Maybe there's a good reason that they aren't replaced with your own deadline, pulled out of your arse? Out of interest, have you ever tried to conceive for multiple years?

It really bothers me that so many people, who seem to know essentially nothing about fertility, are so convinced that they know better than NICE what the most efficient way to treat infertility is (by which they mean, don't treat it). How arrogant, to think you know better than a panel of experts in the field examining all the available evidence.

Maybe the advice should be changed to offer interventions if no pregnancy occurs within 3 years.

Many CCGs specifically say they will only fund IVF if a couple has been TTC unsuccessfully for 3 years

http://www.fertilityfairness.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/London-IVF-Database.xls

No intervention before three years? At that case you risk someone's subfertility declining even further and success of IVF decreasing too. That is the sad thing when fertility and age are intrinsically linked.

I think we should so more to raise awareness about why some people do stil fall pregnant, but why there is a lot that won't.

Similar to a pp, my husband has a blockage so has sperm but it's blocked in the teste. We will never, ever, get pregnant without medical intervention but still we're subject to the same miracle stories.

Also, because of the need to face IVF and the hope of getting pregnant, I try and stay healthy which will hopefully reduce the cost of NHS spend on me. £3k my CCG provider pay for my cycle with my chosen provider, it's about £12k for me privately. There is no justice, equality, or equity in infertility.

It is funny that people who had no problem having children ('we got pregnant on the first try') then judge those who are not so fortunate.

Yes you do not have to have children. However, if an infertile person wants a child it is the hardest journey imaginable and those who got pregnant naturally and easily will never understand, as much as some will try to.

I couldn't actually watch 'One Last Shot' in one go - I had to keep stopping it and coming back to it because it broke my heart so much. My yearning for a child is a need as much as I want a child.

We have had to save up privately for IVF. I have been trying for a baby for 4 1/2 years. That is 4 1/2 years of temping, ovulation tests, internal scans to check, blood tests etc. 4 1/2 years of distancing myself from friends, Facebook and any social situation where I could be near children because seeing someone with a young child breaks my heart each time.

4 1/2 years of crying every month that my period has come again because I still cannot have a baby. Nearly 3 years of saving up for treatment, knowing that I am getting older and the chances of success are getting less, but you need to be able to pay for it - after all most clinics recommend three attempts (that is the NICE guidelines) so that is three lots of IVF and medication costs (yes children cost, but rather than having the £10k saved for raising a child we have to pay to try for one and then start again with no money for the child).

You have the daily injections, monitoring scans and if you are lucky everything is okay for them to retrieve the eggs. You then have to wait and hope the eggs fertilise and the embryo they implant attaches (after all they one put 1 or at most 2 back in to minimise the risk of multiple births when you just want to scream to put them all in as you would happily take the risk). Having to wait for two weeks to see whether the £5k plus that you have just spent means you are pregnant or has just been a complete waste and you are left in a worse state than before.

The joy of walking down the street or being out and seeing mothers ignoring their children (you become quite judgemental) and actually thinking you could just steal their child since they don't seem to want their child anyway.

Figuring out ways to get around town without walking about baby/children shops because it is hard enough seeing other people with children but you can't face walking past Mothercare when you feel as though you are not allowed to go in because for some reason the world has decided you are not good enough and do not deserve to have the baby you want so much.

I do not wish infertility on anyone, but if you have never been through the above then do not sit in judgement of those of us that suffer.

@troubadorstights that's very very rare that happens, a woman's chance of a live birth declines drastically from mid 30s so pushing someone trying to start a family back 3 years can be the difference between having success and not doing, that and the fact people get diagnosed with premature ovarian failure during fertility investigations which means a woman can find out in her 20s she is approaching menopause, things such as endometriosis being diagnosed early enough can also be the difference between having a family and not doing, it's one of the hardest conditions to be diagnosed and commonly doesn't get spotted until people start fertility investigations.

I was diagnosed at 27 after going to my GP as I couldn't conceive and it was that far advanced I needed half my reproductive system removed and was told I wouldn't have a biological child and needed donor eggs, it then took 8 years, 5 cycles and 3 egg donors before I had success. So waiting for 3 years to even start looking into things really isn't wise

How about breast augmentation? A friend of a friend had it done on the NHS as she said her small boobs were causing her mental health to suffer. I’d rather it go on IVF than boobs

This. In this case the NHS should have funded counselling instead. But then I think the smaller the better when it comes to boob size.

Ultimately though I am not sure about making value judgments about what the NHS should and should not deal with. You could easily say that it should not give treatment to people who get drunk on a Saturday night and fall into a gutter and need patching up. But then someone might say that if I go running and hurt myself I should not receive treatment because it's self-induced too. And others would say you don't deserve treatment for diabetes if you are obese through choice.

Infertility isn't self-induced.

breast reconstruction is another women's issue that gets debated as frivolous yet noone has ever criticised me getting cosmetic dental work on the NHS for instance

It is funny that people who had no problem having children ('we got pregnant on the first try') then judge those who are not so fortunate.

That is so true. My SIL is one of those women, she sees the world in black and white. She had a right go at me when DH and I went through IVF, because of the 'spare embryos'. It was just so insensitive, as at that time she had 4 DC (she now has 5.)

The irony is that there wasn't a single embryo, as there was only one immaturity egg.

And yes, she also talked a lot about adoption, as indeed did my DM, who also conceived naturally very easily.

It really was so irritating, because, as DH said, did they really think we didn't know that adoption was an option. We did adopt eventually, of course, but it wasn't because my DM and SIL suggested it.

I have always been on the fence over this issue but this thread has really put me on the 'IVF should be funded' side.

I do wish people would stop calling people goady fuckers for posting what might be an unpopular opinion for some. I do not think OP is goading for a single second or posted anything offensive. She has considered everyone's views respectfully. I think it is unfair to accuse her of goading when this subject is very close to her heart too.

I can't get over this comment though

And if that causes someone to get mentally ill then they should definitely not be having children.

Now that is offensive and I would love the poster who wrote this shit to come back and explain this disgusting line of thought. I have been mentally unwell at points in my life. My husband has a mental illness. I have met so many people who have a mental health condition or have suffered with their mental health at some point in their lives. All of us/them are good parents. Are you really saying that only people without mental health illnesses should have children? Are you really trying to say that people who have a mental health illness cannot be good parents?

I’ve only read the first and last page of comments and I’m so depressed by the attitudes of so many people. Disgusting. As others have said, it is probably the people who have had several children naturally who begrudge the NHS funding IVF. Of course, because many people are inherently cruel and selfish (and are probably quite happy to use the NHS for their own “non-essential” medical issues, or issues they have caused themselves).

I just don’t understand how people can hear the stories from Apple, Banana and others and begrudge giving them the opportunity to have a family?

I am extremely lucky to have two under two who were conceived naturally. We haven’t spent a fraction of the cost of, say, 3 private IVF cycles on them (3 being a common number of IVF cycles required). I just don’t understand the logic of “If you can’t find thousands and thousands of pounds in a very short time, then you can’t afford children”.

For me personally, as desperate as I am for kids. I know there still is a life without them. I can still be fulfilled without them. My chances of having kids are very slim, so I have made peace with it. I don’t feel I’m less of a women for not having kids. I never saw kids as something you just do neither have I been bothered by pressure from society to breed. So my heart breaks for women who feel their life is now over, they commit suicide or they get themselves into £100k of debt, countless rounds of IVF , miscarriages and loss of marriage, with no baby at the end, because they can’t let go. I’m not saying, we shouldn’t have hope, but there needs to be a realistic balance instead of an obsession at the cost of everything. There are women who give up and then adopt and get pregnant. Or just accept kids are not part of their destiny but boom they are pregnant. Again, sadly, some women no matter how hard they try won’t ever have kids. My fertility clinic is pushing me to have IVF. I’m older, I’m overweight, the entire time I have been trying, I have gone through two major life changes and countless stress and my diet and health has suffered. For me, I’m not having IVF. I don’t have a clear cut medical reason or maybe I’d consider IVF. Mine is unexplained. Losing weight, managing my stress and eating healthy is only going to improve my chances. Infact, since it is unexplained, I might end up one of those women that lose weight, change their diet and bang, pregnant. So in my case, I wouldn’t want nhs to pay for someone like me , had I been younger, when they would be better off, providing educational classes for those with unexplained fertility on coping with stress, eating and health for conception. I take full responsability for the mess I have got my health into. I’m going to do what I can first. Of course the doctor pushing for IVF knows these issues will lower my ivf success rate, they don’t care, they will still push me down that path and that’s what makes me angry. These doctors don’t care what heartbreak could result. If they can’t give you a pill, IVF or surgery, they don’t want to know.

Also agree with U2 about the mental health comment. Unbelievable. I don’t know whether people say these things to be goady or whether they genuinely believe these things. Either way, it’s highly unpleasant.

I think if you already have a child or more, you shouldn't get IVF for free thereafter.

I can't (and I'm childless) honestly say no IVF at all.

Caribou - you can’t get IVF on the NHS if either of you has a child.

Coffee, it depends on diagnosis and CCG. Local to me, you can't get IVF if either partner has a child (even if the child is fully estranged), but if you have cancer and have
a child, or even multiple children, they'll give you a round of IVF post-cancer.