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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trigger warning: Germain Greer's opinion on rape...

568 replies

LokiBear · 03/06/2018 09:36

I can't actually get my head around this. How can a woman think like this? I have two daughters and comments like hers frighten me. I teach consent to 15 year olds and this goes against everything I try to teach them. I just dont get how anyone can think like this.

news.sky.com/story/germaine-greer-says-most-rape-is-bad-sex-not-violent-crime-11390855

OP posts:
TheFallenMadonna · 03/06/2018 15:30

Sentencing guidelines already distinguish between rape and aggravated rape.

Aneurin · 03/06/2018 15:43

Will juries really be more likely to convict a marital rapist if it means he gets tattooed with an 'r' and community service rather than prison?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 15:46

Wouldn't the vindictive little imp in most of us like to think so?

But, unfortunately, I don't think she was being serious, more allegorical, more biblical, to make a point!

TheFallenMadonna · 03/06/2018 15:47

The branding bit could be problematic...

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 15:47

Not the 'instead of' part maybe, but the lifetime branding... yes! Please!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 15:48

Why problematic? No. I do know really. But, as I said, the biblical revenge is somewhat beguiling, on a personal level!

TheFallenMadonna · 03/06/2018 15:49

A nice badge of shame reversal though.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 15:52

Yes! I think that's why I like the idea of it. The biter bit!

Aneurin · 03/06/2018 15:57
  1. I think it would make a jury even less likely to convict if they believed that the 'nice, misguided man who just wanted sex with his wife' would be branded forever.
  2. Would it be a badge of shame? In the culture we endure now?

Maybe we should do away with juries for sexual offences, but then again many judges have internalised rape myths too.

Anyway, I should have heeded the trigger warning. I'm one of those who did get PTSD so I need to go and do something about it.

AltogetherAndrews · 03/06/2018 16:08

We make a distinction in other violent offences, in that we can agree that pushing someone is assault, and so is hitting them over the head with a metal bar, but we acknowledge that one is more severe, more damaging, and should be dealt with differently. I don’t know why we consider rape differently, but we clearly do. Germaine Greer is making us think about it.
Just thinking aloud, and not sure about this thought, but I wonder if it is because societies punishment of rape isn’t connected to the level of harm caused at all, but is linked to some patriarchal idea of taking a woman’s virtue, where the method and the harm done is irrelevant?

RebelRogue · 03/06/2018 16:16

@Aneurin

RebelRogue · 03/06/2018 16:16

Forgot the flowers..Thanks

RebelRogue · 03/06/2018 16:23

I don’t know why we consider rape differently, but we clearly do.

Because for years marital rape wasn't a thing, "date rape"( fucked up notion if there ever was one) wasn't a thing, rape while too drunk wasn't a thing. Anything that did not fit "violent stranger in an alley" box was not rape it was women being silly,getting above their station,not full filing their duties , next day regret etc. It took years and years and thousands of victims and brave women speaking up to get it to be a thing. To accept that rape is rape.

In a way I understand the backlash towards GG's comments, as the first instinct is to think it goes against that fight and those women and she is now backtracking.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 16:24

Flowers Aneurin.

It won't be an easy or quick thing, but rape laws and attitudes really do need to change. As you said, would the brand really be a mark of shame these days? Much as the small, vindictive (wounded) part of me would love to see it happen, I know it won't and that it would be horrendous if it did!

RoadToRivendell · 03/06/2018 17:01

We make a distinction in other violent offences, in that we can agree that pushing someone is assault, and so is hitting them over the head with a metal bar, but we acknowledge that one is more severe, more damaging, and should be dealt with differently. I don’t know why we consider rape differently, but we clearly do. Germaine Greer is making us think about it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Equating marital rape with say, the Uber drivers who raped their passengers just leaves everyone with no personal stake in the matter (i.e, the jury pool) scratching their head. You can disagree with them all you like, but you're never going to overcome this obstacle.

Pengggwn · 03/06/2018 17:19

We already DO distinguish between levels of violence in rape cases. Why do people keep talking like we don't?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:23

Because the LAW distinguishes in one way and society distinguishes in an entirely different way.

The idea would be to bring those 2 more in line with each other, making it more likely that a jury would convict.

It is shameful that so few rapes are ever brought to trial, and that so few of those convict, that a rich man can seriously claim he slipped and fell into a woman!

GG does not have to be the last word, but someone has to start this debate, start a change... or do we just continue knowing that men can rape and use the most ridiculous excuses and many people will choose to believe them?

Pengggwn · 03/06/2018 17:31

CuriousaboutSamphire

People who are misogynistic will choose to believe them anyway. What difference is it going to make to stop calling it rape and start calling it "non-consensual sex"? Not to mention that it makes no sense, because the definition of rape is "sex where there is no reasonable belief in consent".

This thread is like stepping through a window into Kafka's ugly mate's office.

TheFallenMadonna · 03/06/2018 17:36

Greer does refer to non consensual sex as rape, whatever the context.

I pointed out in a previous post that there are currently different sentencing guidelines for rape and aggravated rape.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 03/06/2018 17:38

peachgreen, would you really? I mean, how might a typical prosecution for rape within marriage go? A couple of weeks of staring across the courtroom at an unassuming man in a suit each day, as the character witnesses filed in? Listening as his barrister tore his soon-to-be-ex-wife's character to pieces?

At this point, it should be noted that in general, people find it easy to be severe jurors in the hypothetical when they are reading about current court cases in the news. If they actually serve on a jury, time in the same room as a personable or trustworthy seeming defendant, looking him or her in the eye each day, may have them contorting themselves to accept the defence team's convoluted explanations at face value.

Do you think you would get nine other people on the jury to agree that responsible professional man in the suit should go to prison for five years because his ex-wife accuses him of having sex with her without asking?

You don't have a snowball's chance in hell, in my opinion.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 17:42

FFS! Education, changing social mores, making a difference to the status quo.

GG say quite clearly that non consensual sex IS RAPE. The law agrees, but jurors don't seem to.

So, maybe, by making some changes - ANY changes, come up iwth better ones and I will support you - we can change social perception and start successfully prosecuting more rapists!

KataraJean · 03/06/2018 17:56

What is bothering me in this thread is the assumption that marital rape is not violent.

I mean, am I understanding that correctly? There seems to be an undertone that marital rape is somehow benign, a bit of careless insensitivity and overstepping of boundaries within an otherwise fine relationship. But that is nonsense. No two marital rapes are the same, just as no two stranger rapes are.

The reason marital rapes are not prosecuted is because of power dynamics in society, that men are usually the ones with more money and the better job and the woman is caring more for the children whether she works or not. It is very, very hard to make a rape complaint against your children’s father, for the same reason many women living with other forms of domestic abuse deal with it themselves and not by involving the police. It is nothing to do with the level of violence or otherwise involved.

The predatory men preying on women in an Uber or wherever are NO different to the predatory men who do not respect their wives’ right to consent. The difference is that the wife (or co-habiting partner) has a whole raft of familial and social obligations to contend with, which mean walking out the house with internal bruising at 1am is not an option.

If there is a difference, it is context - and this thread is doing little to dispel it - there is no marital bond or historic ‘right’ for the Uber driver to rape his passenger (hence the assumption this is worse, more violent, more traumatic). There is the marital bond, the privacy of the marital home, ideas about female subservience and historic belonging to their husbands which frame a wife being raped. That is the difference, and it seems to be playing out in this thread in some kind of fuzzy notion that marital rape and violent rape are two different things. It is totally bizarre.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/06/2018 18:08

It does read like that doesn't it. But no it stems from the way GG described a form of marital rape, to make her point rather than to insist that marital rape is 'benign'.

And any of us have made the point that RAPE IS RAPE and every womans experience is different. I'm not sure why the thread is or isn't dispelling something for you.... I thought it was a bun fight with all participants having the same aim but coming at it form different angles, and getting annnoyed because of the lack of consensus to their version of 'the obvious' Your last line joins in with that Smile

AltogetherAndrews · 03/06/2018 18:13

I don’t think this thread is about suggesting that marital rape isn’t violent, or at least it didn’t start that way. Marital rape can of course be violent, and persistent overriding of consent, even without explicit violence is hugely damaging and abusive. GG is not talking about marital rape, she is talking about rape which is not violent and does not cause long term damage, which does happen, but does not get discussed, and does not get reported to the police.

KataraJean · 03/06/2018 18:21

I know, I went away from the thread and wondered whether Germaine Greer was simply late to catch up to what many domestic abuse and women’s charities argue and women in Britain hopefully know as a matter of course - that any sex without consent is rape. From what this thread says, I really don’t see how Greer is saying anything new - BUT she is muddying the waters herself (when they were previously clear) by using an example that implies marital rape is a clumsy, badly handled sexual advance. It is not. The way she describes it is still rape, but it also has very little in common with sexual abuse and dominance in the context of coercive control and domestic abuse. In other words, there has been progress on understanding that sex without consent is rape, ie the obvious you refer to, (and having that taught) but Greer’s badly chosen example muddies that understanding. I cannot see that is helpful, really. It seems like she has come up with a truth already established and is confusing people (and opening the door to ideas that some rape is less harmful, which have taken decades to dispel and still need dispelling) by expressing it badly.

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