BBC2 documentary Grammar schools who will get in? Why wouldn't you try?

[Whatatadoo]

Watching the documentary last night and thought the grammar school came across really well, the secondary modern not so good. Just wondering why, if you have the opportunity you wouldn't try for the grammar? I know all schools should be equal but in reality they're not. Why wouldn't you want to give your dc the best possible education if you had the chance?

I agree pacer.

As a parent you can only work with the system you've got.

You can campaign for a better system but there's little you can do to change it. I don't believe the grammar system is fair on everyone and have certainly campaigned that it is not extended - to the extent of attending meetings in parliament on the subject.

However I don't see how putting an academically capable student into a secondary modern helps them or changes the system, when the majority of children of similar ability are elsewhere.

The system pits parents against each other, and children against each other to a certain extent, but an individual child in an individual school won't change that, having a Government policy based on research and expert opinion will.

I agree pacer.

As a parent you can only work with the system you've got.

You can campaign for a better system but there's little you can do to change it. I don't believe the grammar system is fair on everyone and have certainly campaigned that it is not extended - to the extent of attending meetings in parliament on the subject.

However I don't see how putting an academically capable student into a secondary modern helps them or changes the system, when the majority of children of similar ability are elsewhere.

The system pits parents against each other, and children against each other to a certain extent, but an individual child in an individual school won't change that, having a Government policy based on research and expert opinion will.

@catweasel44 My parents buckled some 20 years ago - I sat the 11+ admittedly with no preparation and the vast majority of others in my year were from private schools that coached them - and got in. Highly politicised family - campaigners in a very blue area. I was really confused about who I was. All the principles I'd been raised with were chucked out of the window. I was out of place at school - bullied but also became so driven that I valued myself only by exam results. Perfect recipe for a breakdown in my 20s.

I think what some are comparing are not comprehensives - as by definition in a grammar area they cannot be comprehensive. Only if we get rid of the grammars can we have true comprehensive schools. Admittedly I've not heard of further maths GSCE but certainly our local secondary modern does Further Maths A level.

We can only do our bit. DD, like me, has been raised in a lefty politically active household. As far as possible she understands that. If I'm not prepared to walk the walk how can I ever talk the talk.

Maybe someone mentioned this earlier, but I wanted to point out how amazing that teacher was at the Secondary Modern. She was a fantastic form tutor. She was very pragmatic and recognised the challenges for the kids she had, and I thought it was interesting that she still felt that it was good to have the grammars. When asked the question, she responded "Why not?".

1 in 30 children, who sat the exams received at least 10 A grades. 3.3%, 20,000 children over 5 years.

That's 10As not 10A*s-

Just watched spisode 1.

Felt so, so sorry for Janita.

Sharing a bedroom with her adult sister and her sister baby who keeps her up during the night.

No where quiet to worn with her two younger brothers playing around her feet.

Three hours of practice a night!

Huge parental expectation.

What a waste of a childhood.

Also thought Mrs Edinburgh at Erith was incredibky inspirational but I was sad to see how much of her time went on pasterol care and checking on shit home situations.

Let’s be under no illusions, getting into the grammar means your child doesn’t have to deal with disruption from troubled children, children with SEN or those that simply don’t want to learn.

What’s the answer?

More money. Much more money to support al children to reach their full potential, whatever their home life.

Did anyone watch last night's episode?

Behaviour seemed to be the focus; the level of what was deemed unacceptable, exclusions (rare in the Grammar as opposed to 5 in one term at the Secondary), a staff member on behaviour patrol to pull kids from class as they were disrupting the lesson at the Secondary but nothing similar in the Grammar.

I just caught up on last nights episode. Still digesting it. I found in upsetting. Dealing with disruptive behaviour was also disruptive to learning especially in a school of that size. It was like she was on a marathon doing her behaviour patrol. They need to reevaluate their system. Every time she barged in to pull someone out, she equally stopped the learning flow.

Not having the student do her revision class, when she had already been excluded for 16 days and was behind because she had to do a detention??? Seriously??? She needed an attitude adjustment, yes, but I disagreed with that and could see why she was upset even if her response was rude. That was misguided and petty.

I thought it was misleading focussing on behaviour anyway, if only because Townley is a single sex school whereas Erith is not. That alone would have been a significant factor irrespective of the fact that one is a grammar school and one isn't. Further, the likes of Townley are very rarely going to have to deal with issues such as ADHD and probably wouldn't know where to start if they did.

Erith appear to have committed and caring teachers and I would like the programme to show the school in a more positive light rather than the focus on the disruptive behaviour, which must be seriously off putting for parents whose children are due to go there this September.

I agree with both Bibesia and Bevelino. All girls compared to co-ed is very different. I'll be curious what they focus on next week. I have kids in both types of schools, although we are not in a purely selective area. ADHD and Aspergers is quite common at my DS all boys selective state (although the kids they have will be high functioning), and they do have behaviour issues at times, my son being one, but the overall atmosphere of the school is calmer than the comp my DD is attending. No doubt Erith has more challenging behaviour, but they are teaching life skills at the same time. Townley won't be teaching the same life skills, because work ethic etc will already have been instilled at home for probably all the girls most likely, possibly too much given the anxiety some of them feel.

Episode 2- thought they treated Juanita in Edith school appallingly actually. Yes she had an attitude problem but the way the enforcement teacher spoke to her and continually attacked her. It's no wonder they feel they can speak that way. Children pick up everything. Even the older ones.

It felt akin to a probation officer/prison officer pulling kids out of the classes in understand the head wants to get their behaviour in line but I think it was exacerbating it. And focusing on the Ofsted report too much and NOT the kids.

Even though I went to a GS. And- I see the values and they probably outweigh the negatives and I would do the same for future kids. I felt that the one on the show was a bit too much spoon feeding - running to talk to the child in the middle of the lesson to ask why the homework wasn't in? Real-life won't have people on your backs like that about a piece of homework. But you will get reprimanded or you lose out on chances.

[It felt akin to a probation officer/prison officer pulling kids out of the classes in understand the head wants to get their behaviour in line but I think it was exacerbating it. And focusing on the Ofsted report too much and NOT the kids.]

Totally agree

I was glad to see her have a mentoring relationship with her science teacher. More of that please. But, equally, I know it is just down to luck if a student gets that at a school of that size

I thought the heads at both Townly GS and Erith were very unimpressive. I wouldn’t want my dc to go to either school because of them.

The teachers In Erith school and the schools featured on 'educating Essex, Yorkshire ,etc seem to waver between behaving like prison guards and their best mates.
The grammar school shown and my own DCs GS do not patronise kids like this . They explain a rule and the rationale for it and move on.
Some of the kids in this programme were so disruptive they really should not be in a mainstream school

I recently organised for a tutor to tutor my 9 year old son for 11+ exams. She is not a teacher but a mum who is well off enough to not work and dedicate her time helping her children. One of her sons now goes to a very good school as he passed his 11+. Do you think I will have the same quality of teaching with her as I would have from a qualified teacher? She charges £25 an hour which is much more reasonable.

Just watched the second episode and was looking for somewhere to rant about it.

"The teachers In Erith school and the schools featured on 'educating Essex, Yorkshire ,etc seem to waver between behaving like prison guards and their best mates.
The grammar school shown and my own DCs GS do not patronise kids like this "

Exactly, that was the thing that bothered me the most about the comp, and would be the main reason I wouldn't want my DS to go somewhere like that (rather than being worried about the results).

I thought they treated Chichi in a ridiculous way. I'd be just as pissed off if I couldn't attend a revision class for detention and I'm not a 16 year old. I couldn't believe they were actually considering expulsion. No wonder their GCSE results were even lower than expected if that's how they treat their brightest students.

AL75- the only thing that qualifies anyone to be an 11+ tutor is finding someone gullible enough to pay.I am sure you could do it yourself!

Has anyone seen the third episode.

Felt so sorry for those girls so worried about their results. All those teachers who basically just refused to go back.

My dd is due to start at a secondary modern in September. It's a poorly performing one. I would have loved for her to go to the single sex grammar.

Given a choice id go for an all girls comp. Our "choices" here if you don't get into a grammar are awful.

I didn't pass the 12 plus. I should have. Would have been nice to have seen a practice paper or two just so i knew what to expect . When the smart ones are missing you become the smart one. It's hard to think to yourself as a child that it's worth all the stress of studying so hard when you can do ok barely trying. I wish I'd been surrounded by more academic people in a place where being clever isn't a source of ridicule and selfish idiots think cos they don't want to work mo one else should he able to.

I really shouldn't watch these programmes. It's far to depressing that one test means you either get to go a school where kids want to learn and behaviour is good or you end up in a zoo with a string of supply teachers cos no one wants to step foot in the building

Do you think I will have the same quality of teaching with her as I would have from a qualified teacher?

Anyone with a reasonable standard of education and some perseverance can go through practice 11+ papers with children. They're aimed at 11 year olds. Whether children will be willing to knuckle down at home and go through papers with a parent, is entirely another matter! Many parents employ a tutor because for various reasons they might not have the time/inclination/confidence to do it themselves, or to persuade their children to co-operate.
You definitely do not have to be a qualified teacher to coach for the 11+.

Furthermore, I've never believed you can 'teach' children to pass the 11+. You can give them the opportunity to practice, whether you or a tutor does it, just like you would for any other test or exam that awaits them. You can be sure that schools don't let the children sit SATs without plenty of coaching!

Erith needs a lot of work. There are some very well meaning/good teachers and there are some diligent students (who are doing well in spite of the school because they would do well anywhere), but the overall way the school is run doesn't do them any favours. I don't think if they had even a 3rd of the grammar students there it would really make a difference to the kids who aren't progressing. I've seen schools like Erith turn themselves around, but they would need to restructure their entire education plan and support. Also, teachers stay at schools when they feel they are supported by staff and management. If they are constantly dealing with behaviour issues it is very difficult to teach. I can see Erith attempting to deal with this, but the way they go about it is ineffective and gets in the way of education for the ones who are there to learn. You can't just blame it on the high achieving pupils not being there. From what they have shown on the program, that is a cop out.

WatcherintheRye- I completely agree with all the points you raised regarding the 11+ and believe me, the amount of coaching that goes into the Sats is pretty hardcore at the outstanding schools, but you can't cram for these things. Kids know it or they don't. They understand it or they don't. They are there or they aren't. You can really only raise the attainment by about 10% through practice. Learning is a long game for anything. In a way it is like health and diet. Learning/education is a lifestyle.

Very interesting documentary but a better comparison would be grammar school vs an outstanding/ good non selective secondary.