BBC2 documentary Grammar schools who will get in? Why wouldn't you try?

[Whatatadoo]

Watching the documentary last night and thought the grammar school came across really well, the secondary modern not so good. Just wondering why, if you have the opportunity you wouldn't try for the grammar? I know all schools should be equal but in reality they're not. Why wouldn't you want to give your dc the best possible education if you had the chance?

I took my 11+ back in 1984. No tuition. No extra coaching. No pressure from parents. No stress. I went to the grammar.

We were also one of the poorest families in my small town. I was an only child because my parents could only just afford to have me and we'd only just got a telephone installed in our rented and pretty shabby cottage a few months after I turned 10.

Unless you give me the schools and access to the stats, I simply don’t believe it

I'm obviously not going to give you stats as to where my kid is going so you'll have to not believe it. I'll live

It's not just people who pass it who support the Grammar school education.
My df failed it and is a very strong supporter of the system because he saw the difference it could make to people from his very poor background.

Also the argument that it splits friendships isn't really a good one as a lot of places have more than one school that children go to. My girls both went to schools that none of their friends went to simply because of location etc.

Problem I'd say is that it should be on instead ability, whereas now it's on tutoring as much.

My df failed it and is a very strong supporter of the system because he saw the difference it could make to people from his very poor background.

That applied in the past when few had the opportunity to take O levels, but now everyone takes GCSEs

I consider myself a fan of grammar schools but i think that is because I am thinking of grammar schools as they were when I was a teen in the area where i grew up so I am viewing them with rose tinted specs.
It was a grammar school area (maybe everywhere was then), everyone sat the test and we did some practice papers etc at primary. There was no question of tutoring and no stress. There were also no real surprises in terms of who passed and who didn't. I grew up in a working class area so it may well be that there was more tutoring and pressure in schools in middle class areas, but the % who passed at my primary school was in line with the overall % who went to grammar school so it is not my impression that the middle class primaries were creaming off the grammar places.
Clearly there were a few people who were considered borderline some of whom passed and some of whom didn;t so for the children in that category who did not pass I can see that the concept of determining future on the basis of performance on 1 day age 11 is not great. The truly borderline candidiates felt like quite a small % at the time though.

Also there was some movement. We had a reasonable number join in the third year (y9) and more in fourth year at the start of O levels. Also lots at 6th form. One of my siblings did not pass (good at maths not so much at english) and actually enjoyed being inthe top set in some subjects at his school which he would not have been at grammar. he moved at sixth form. I dont think he would describe having failed his 11 plus as something that adversely affected him long term.

So this is my impression of grammar schools but i do appreciate that it is very different today (no grammar schools sufficiently near us for this to be an option for my DC). I can see that tutuoring could really make a difference to the borderline DC and gives them an advantage, but I still cant see that, at least in a grammar area, tuturoing would result in the cleverest children missing out (say top 10-15%). I realise the super-selectives are different.

My heart broke for Joanita. She was far too young to be worrying that her chances of a positive future were ruined because of not getting the required score in an exam. Her Headmistress has a great attitude, and really worked hard to make sure that the children would enjoy their final months of primary school, and not have it overshadowed by any disappointment in their 11 plus score. She also seemed very certain that Juanita would make her mark, wherever life took her.

I really hope she is right, as I felt terribly sorry for that little girl. The two boys seemed to take not passing more in their stride and had rationalised it and moved on pretty quickly. But Joanita's initial disbelief and then despair about her future was heartbreaking. I think her mum was very well meaning but didn't seem to understand the extreme pressure her daughter was under. An hour of tutoring every evening followed by two hours of work at home was way too much for a child of that age. Particularly when she was also being kept awake at night by her sister's baby and trying to study in a busy noisy room.

@Witchend My df failed it and is a very strong supporter of the system because he saw the difference it could make to people from his very poor background.

I had similar - my DF pushed us towards Grammar for the same reason (he and DM are not academic, he went to Tech instead) and that it would give us more opportunities. I suppose the idea behind that was if you went to Grammar you were seen as someone who valued education and worked hard at it.

Which brings me onto another point; discipline and the worth of education. I work in the primary school system, and I can see which children have parents who value education and which have parents that see school as somewhere their kids go to because they have to or it gets their kids out from under their feet for 7hrs a day. I see the ones that have behaviour issues - some are SEN - but many come from disruptive/unstable backgrounds. There are kids who cause disruption in the classroom day-in and day-out, and my own son was glad to be going to a Grammar because these students would not be going. He just wanted to get on and have a break from kids shouting and refusing to work, because he loves learning and school and has aspirations.

Lots of my friends chose not to. Their DCs were interested, they were perfectly happy with the local high school and there was a greater chance that they would stay with friends. They asked their children if they wanted to do it. They didn’t. End of.

Many children don’t get that choice. Parents become obsessed with getting their children into GS. It hugely frustrates them that the state primary school system doesn’t support the GS process. They buy the house in catchment, start tutoring from year 1, they feel they are entitled to that GS place. Then the child can’t cope with the pressure of the test and they realise the local high schools are pretty great after all.

I can see which children have parents who value education

And that's another problem with grammars. To obtain a place, a child needs a parent who not only values education, but knows the system.

If the secondary modern schools are as bad as some say, lots of bright children are still missing out on a good education.

but knows the system.

Can you clarify?

Not all Grammar areas have kids going to tutors to be crammed for the 11+. I guess it depends on the area?

It's not just about tutoring, it's about understanding that some schools are better than others, a test needs to be taken and getting the children to at least practice past papers. There are lots of parents who value education, but don't understand how to maximize their child's chances of a place.

And of course there are bright, engaged children whose parents don't care about education, who aren't going to get to sit the test at all.

Don’t get valuing education confused with valuing exam results.

GS have a heap of uninspiring teachers who do nothing to promote a love of learning IME. The most impressed I’ve been with a school is the local high school which can’t shake of its poor reputation of the ‘70/ ‘80s. It’s worked so hard and is it he best preforming HS in an area served by about 5 GS. Parents are just about realising that there’s a very good alternative to the complacent exam factory GS system around here.

That applied in the past when few had the opportunity to take O levels, but now everyone takes GCSEs

Yes, but not all schools offer the GCSEs that "some" people want to take, i.e. some offer only 1 MFL, some don't offer further maths, some don't offer computer science, some don't offer separate sciences. Some force kids to take a GCSE they have no interest in, such as RE, or a humanity, or a MFL or a tech/art subject, limiting their choices. Most comps don't offer classics.

There can be good reasons other than "snobbery" why people choose a grammar over a comp. Just the same as why some people choose Comp A over Comp B, if one comp specialises more in sports, or arts or technology, or MFL or science or Maths.

And of course there are bright, engaged children whose parents don't care about education, who aren't going to get to sit the test at all.

Which is why there is rightly pressure on grammars to make themselves more attractive and to offer support to those who typically wouldn't choose the grammar option. One of our local Grammars does this exceptionally well with a program where they actually go out to talk to kids in local primaries and take in a small number of the primary pupils (decided by the head not the parents) to go into the grammar for one afternoon per week for several weeks to "experience" the school and dispel the myths etc. From what I understand it's open to all local primaries (not just the leafy suburbs) but sadly some of the primary heads have chosen not to participate.

Yes, but not all schools offer the GCSEs that "some" people want to take, i.e. some offer only 1 MFL, some don't offer further maths, some don't offer computer science, some don't offer separate sciences. Some force kids to take a GCSE they have no interest in, such as RE, or a humanity, or a MFL or a tech/art subject, limiting their choices. Most comps don't offer classics.

But that's nothing to do with the grammar school system, that's timetable and staffing issues at individual schools.

GS have a heap of uninspiring teachers who do nothing to promote a love of learning IME.

In your experience, yes. In my experience, you find uninspiring teachers in all schools and there are plenty of inspiring teachers in grammars. It all depends on the school, it's leadership, ethos etc. You can't generalise for all schools as they're all different.

I always think grammar schools are a triumph of intuition over investigation- they have a ‘common sense’ appeal but there is a heap of evidence that says they don’t do what they’re supposed to, so why do people still support them? Really, when almost everyone who’s put a lot of time and energy into researching their effects is telling you they don’t work why do people think they know better.

shawshanks Parents still need to be clued up enough to realise there is an exam and child has to be entered. Some schools are already open to register to sit this September for entry September 2019. If you have a 9 year old in yr 5 and are not familiar with grammar perhaps from a non grammar area or abroad then high School won’t be on your radar at all so early. Some people think you pay to attend grammar, confusion from ex grammars becoming private Schools perhaps. If the child isn’t registered to sit the exam before yr 6 even starts then it’s too late. State schools don’t usually tell parents registration is open.
The one my DC sat for just gives 20 sample questions in the booklet you get at yr 6 open night, 10 days before the test. A bit of research tells you it is set by GL and £60 from amazon buys you every practice paper (2 packs of English, maths and vr). Clued up parents go to the open night yr 4 or 5, then buy the practice books and papers so the child is familiar with the format, how to mark a line in a computer read box, practice the 20? Types of vr question. Those in the know or with tutors also know that a child will be tested on the yr 6 maths syllabus 2 weeks into yr 6 so someone - parent or tutor needs to cover that with them. No matter how bright you are exam conditions under a minute a question is not the time to figure out vr or maths for the first time.

I despise the grammar school system.

MIL went to grammar school in the '50s (sample question: which is the odd one out? Dog cat television. Answer: cat, because you need a licence for the others ) along with her entire class, because her teacher tutored them to within an inch of their lives. She didn't fare very well academically and has mediocre qualifications, but inexplicably moved to a grammar school area so that her DS (my DH) could go to one he did okay, much the same as he would have in a state school.

I went to Oxford from a non-selective state sixth form college.

MIL went to grammar school in the '50s

Therein lies the problem. People are comparing today's "grammar" system to what we had in the 50's/60's. That era is irrelevant today. People should be concentrating on today, not 50 years ago. A modern grammar is nothing like a 50's grammar, just like a modern comp is nothing like a 50's sec mod.

Yeah, but people credit the grammar school system with transforming the country back in the day so many reasons why this isn't the case.

There is a strong argument that grammar schools had little to do with it and it was actually to do with the massive increase in managerial and white collar jobs in the 50s which suddenly needed filling.

I live in the area featured and I won’t be tutoring my DD because she will not manage at grammar school. I attended grammar school myself and they are great for the very very bright but those that just scraped in really struggled. These kids were by any other standards clever kids but they spent all their school years bottom of class and it’s really damaging to their self esteem and a lot dropped out of 6th form. At any other at any other school they’d be the top stream and would sail through a levels.

I watched the programme with great sadness at the amount of pressure these kids were under especially Juanita, and how they handled her mum telling her she didn't get a place was heartbreaking.
My DD goes to a grammar school although it's in the next town, so there was no pressure for her to attend, I think only 2 from her school sat the exam. She had no paid tuition and just a few of the practice papers, as my reasoning was if you need a tutor, you shouldn't be taking the exam. Her school however is full of kids that were either tutored or came from private schools. Maybe it would help if the primary schools recognised the exam and actually did some practice papers for those in the top set so there would be no need for tutors.

GS have a heap of uninspiring teachers who do nothing to promote a love of learning IME.~
considering nearly 100% of GS students go on to university, I am not sure how you come to that conclusion?