BBC2 documentary Grammar schools who will get in? Why wouldn't you try?

[Whatatadoo]

Watching the documentary last night and thought the grammar school came across really well, the secondary modern not so good. Just wondering why, if you have the opportunity you wouldn't try for the grammar? I know all schools should be equal but in reality they're not. Why wouldn't you want to give your dc the best possible education if you had the chance?

In our area we have grammars and private schools as well as comps.

The grammars are harder to get into than the private schools.

The private schools get better results than the grammars.

So it seems to me that money is the key to it.

Isn’t it a shame we can’t provide that for everyone.

I think you could transform society with investment in education.

I’ve watched it and I’m thanking my lucky stars that I live in a comprehensive area with great schools that cater for all. Yes I did go to a grammar school (lived in the adjoining area to the programme and if I hadn’t I wouldn’t be doing the job I’m doing now as my subject was not offered past year 9 in the local secondary modern school.) It makes me more passionate as a teacher that all pupils deserve the education amd opportunities I had and not those deemed good enough one on day. Thankfully both schools in my town do offer those opportunities and without the stress of an exam aged 10.

I watched some of it, but I could't watch it to the end as I found it too upsetting. I felt so sorry for the children, I thought they were humiliated publicly. I think the grammar school system is pure evil. I would never live in a grammar school area.

But if these were your options would you not let your own dc sit the 11+ because you disagree with the system or would you go against your beliefs?

We live in a grammar school area. I don't like it, but DD asked to do the 11+. We were in a position to pay for tutoring. So, she was tutored for one academic year. Her maths improved enormously and she was taught good exam technique skills and given advice about how to answer the questions well.
I think the success rate locally for applicants is about 1:4.
We also looked round the local comp, which is actually a good school and lots of her friends go there/will go there. After looking round we were genuinely not sure we'd made the right choice to tutor and all the time/effort/cash that had demanded.
However, DD has now been offered a place at the Grammar, which we have accepted and will now have to wait and see if we've done the right thing.
I think the process places unreasonable demands on some kids, especially if their parents are very keen on one school over another. We tried to be supportive but made it clear we thought either school was a good option and the test was there to see which would suit her better.

Haven't seen the programme but have a dc in yr 7 at a grammar. I wouldn't put a child or myself through it unless they had a good chance of passing. There are previous papers you can buy. If a child isn't regularly scoring above pass mark in timed conditions on practice papers I wouldn't put them through it. A 3 hour test in exam conditions age 10 in a strange sports hall with hundreds of others is not something to try unless they have a decent chance of passing imo. Lots don't sit for grammar in our area as the alternative is an outstanding comprehensive in stunning countryside with 84% 5 A-C gcse pass rate inc eng and maths.

Tutoring doesn't guarantee results at all,as the programme showed. One of the mums worked in Poundland and spent £300 a month,that is almost 5 times as much as we spent. You don't need tutors, you can get the same books tutors use and diy it. Many tutors aren't even professional teachers.

I went to a grammar school and it was no better than the good comps in our city. I also hated it being single sex, I got on better with boys at primary school and hated being stuck with just girls at secondary.

We looked into the 11+ for our son but he couldn't cope with the pressure so he went to the local comp. There are kids of all abilities there and they are all well catered for. I don't believe that he would get that much of a better education at the grammar tbh. My daughter also went to the same school and when they suddenly had a staff shortage in one of her GCSE subjects, they arranged for them to be taught at the girls grammar school for that subject. She said the teacher was terrible, missing out important information and she ended up teaching herself from the textbook.

So many kids get into grammars due to intense tutoring and then struggle to keep up once there. Surely that is not good for their self esteem.

Grammar schools really aren't all that they are cracked up to be.

Both my kids go to Grammar, both chose that path knowing it was very academic and would demand a lot from them (3 pieces of HWK a night as opposed to 3 pieces a week at the local secondary). I went to a Grammar and hated it, DH did not go to Grammar and was indifferent; it had to be what suited our children and what they wanted. We visited all local secondary schools and went from there, but what I would really have liked would be Grammar streaming within the Secondary modern system, so those that are academic like mine get the focus on their abilities they need, the same as those that are more vocational get the support they need with their abilities.

Some people still are held back on their thinking that academia is somehow "better" and that if you go to a Grammar it's seen as "snootier" in some way (this was mentioned to me and also my kids). This mindset HAS to change so we see value in ALL children and their abilities.

I am now off to watch the programme on catch up!

I was so upset for Janita. Nowhere to work quietly, sleep disturbed by little baby and huge expectations from her Mum. I totally get how much her Mum wanted her to pass in as a grammar school education would give her more choices, but it would have been so hard for her to pass under the circumstances.

We lived in a terrible area for both primary and secondary education and had there been a grammar school system in our area I would have encouraged DD to take the entrance exam. If you are lucky enough to live in an area with good comprehensives then I think it’s less important. We ended up going private but our nephews who live in a different part of the country got as good an education at their comprehensive as DD got privately. I went to a crap comp and because I wasn’t the ablest if kids academically I was virtually written off and the constant disruptive behaviour of some of the kids made it almost impossible to learn anyhow. It was a miserable and frustrating experience.

@Dragonglass So many kids get into grammars due to intense tutoring and then struggle to keep up once there. Surely that is not good for their self esteem.

Any parent that tutors just do their child gets into grammar is not helping their child one iota. Their child may pass the test, but they'll struggle to keep up with the pressure a grammar can have.

Like anything, there are huge variations in standard. Many comps will be far better than a second-rate grammar. I didn’t think the comp came across badly, I was actually really impressed with the form tutor who was passionate but what struck me was the huge investment in pastoral care with all of the discussion around breakfast. Whereas at the grammar, there was none of that. The focus is on the academic which is what most parents want, they’ve got the breakfast side covered.

If I was faced with that choice, then yes of course I’d get my DD to try for it if I thought it was right for them. However I much prefer my current choice of secondary schools none of which require an exam and seeing that programme made me very thankful that I live where I do.

I have to decide whether to put my daughter in for the 11+ as we live in the area where the documentary was filmed. I’m going through some practice materials with her, no tutor and will decide with her soon. I feel we are in the minority with regards to tutoring. And Open days were also full of children from private schools. Its a definite route here - private primaries pushing how many children they get through the exam. Last year 6045 children took the test, 1722 were deemed ‘selective’. There are approximately 800 grammar places. You do the maths.

Grammar schools here.

Full of tuitioned kids with rich parents and kids from private primary who are tutored to pass the exam.

It’s totally corrupt.

I live in a grammar school area and I bloody hate it. However, the secondary schools here are very good and get good results. My DS is bright but has dyslexia which means he does struggle with writing particularly. There would have been an outside chance he could get a place at a grammar with a lot of tutoring but I didn't want to put him through that so he's not taking the 11+ and I am so pleased we made that decision. He'll be fine at a Secondary and is sociable and confident, qualities I think are as important as academic ability. I went to grammar school, it was fine, i have a good job and quality of life. My brother didn't go to grammar school, has an equally good job (think he earns more than me) and also has a good quality of life. So grammar school isn't the be all and end all.

Just practicing papers at home is the same as tutdoing really.

It's really not.

And I think it's easy to forget that some children don't have a calm space at home to practice either.

They may have more "duties"/chores than their peers (due to... Idk, being the child of a working, single mother, e.g.) or they may not have a quiet space.

Or maybe noone told them that they could / should try. Maybe they believe that they wouldn't pass anyway.

Whereas other children were brought up with the firm believe that they are intelligent, worthy, special etc.

I didn’t watch it. I failed my 12+ when I should have passed. I went to a secondary modern “school”, which should have been in special measures but no such thing existed in those days. Basically I was dumped in a dustbin and my education was dreadful. The top level achievable was pitifully low and the gaps in my knowledge when I went on to do a level were shocking.

I know the level of teaching has improved somewhat since the early 1980’s, however it’s still a barbaric system. I managed to go to university but it was not with thanks to my education. We live in an area with comprehensive schools thank goodness.

I feel sorry for all those children both with wealthy/ pushy parents and those from a disadvantaged background. This system is screwing with their lives.

I actually thought the form teacher from the comp was horrendous as was the head teacher from the grammar. I do think intensive tutoring from y3 is wrong but I also think calling the grammar school system evil is very ott. It's not evil to want your academically able child to go to an outstanding school rather than a needing improvement one. I am realising how lucky I am to live in an area with two grammars and two none selective schools that are outstanding however.

Single sex was why one of my daughters wanted to,and did, go to a grammar school and why the other did not. There should be single sex non grammars too I think. All schools should be good without feral children ruining it for the others, but they are not, so I don't blame people for doing the best for their children. All for more grammar schools but we also need more special schools.

I went to a single sex grammar school and it was definitely right for me - but I didn't have to take any sort of exam to get in - presumably our Junior school teachers assessed our ability over a period of months if not years and that's how we were selected - not on results on any given day but on potential and ability.
I can see why the 11+ or whatever they have to take these days is a bad thing, but as a teacher I think grammar schools are good as not everyone has the same academic ability - all pupils should attend a school which will enable them to make the most of what abilities they do have ...... a "one size fits all" approach doesn't always do this.

My parents were definitely working class, but valued education and I took the 11+ and went to grammar school and became a teacher.

Part of Joanita’s problem was that she really had nowhere to study that was her own quiet space. It’s not a level playing field when it depends on your ability to pay for extra tuition. Not that that always works, as evidenced by the programme.

I had a similar experience to Proseccoagain.

I went to grammar school and it wasn't a good fit for me personally, for a variety of reasons. I do live in a grammar area, and will decide with DD if the test is worth taking. School is good academically but has a poor reputation in other areas, DD lives in social housing so bullying is likely. There is a reasonable comprehensive option.

I haven't seen the programme yet but I went to one of the schools shown in the 90s. It was a good school then, and achieved strong academic results but it sounds quite different now. Tutoring for the 11 plus was rare back then. Lots of people attended from poorer parts of the borough and got FSM. It gave the academically minded great opportunities. I do understand about people being written off though - neither of my parents passed in their day and my dad had a very poor education as a result (my mum fared a little better - she was ill on the day of her 11 plus and ended up as a bit of a star at her secondary modern and became head girl etc).

I wouldnt have let dcs 2 and 3 sit. Dc 1 i would have.
But sensibly we have lived in Bedfordshire rather than Bucks. And East Sussex rather than Kent.