Unreasonable driver or deranged pedestrian? Over to the MN Jury

[woolythoughts]

I’ll try to keep it to the point – google picture attached of the actual section of road.

1. In a queue of traffic up the lights at the junction – nose to tail traffic
2. There is nothing on the road to indicate that it is a crossing of any sort nor are there any keep clear markings
3. A dropped kerb with an island does not in itself make a crossing

Was I unreasonable to draw the following:

Conclusion 1: There was no requirement for me to keep the road clear at the point of the dropped kerb

Conclusion 2: The woman who pushed her buggy into the side of my car, banged on the window and started effing and blinding about it being a crossing and having to leave space was off her head and I was justified in telling her to do one.

If the traffic is nose to tail and no-one leaves a gap, how are pedestrians ever meant to get across?

In some countries they will walk across.

As a pedestrian, that looks like a crossing to me.

You do know that pedestrians have just as much right to use the roads as drivers? You are sharing the road with other users, not dominating it. Your actions make you look like one of those drivers who is dangerous for pedestrians, as you don't seem to see them or care about them.

YWBU for not leaving a space. Would it have killed you to have left 5 feet or so?

Car drivers are often very selfish, from a pedestrian's point of view. And that makes the dangerous.

What if you exchange the lady with a buggy (so can go up and down kerbs) for a person in a wheelchair (who can't) ?

If it’s standstill traffic you are stopping people from using that crossing (and it is a crossing of sorts). It doesn’t matter that there was no one there when you stopped, someone did come along and couldn’t cross because of you. And it’s a bit scary you actually failed to notice it was there. So you were definitely in the wrong and being unreasonable.

But no way does that justify crazy buggy lady’s OTT reaction. Usinv her baby to ram your car is not justified so she was also unreasonable. Poor kid in that pram!!

And it's slightly worrying you didn't notice an island next to you.

This. Surely it's a basic of driving to be aware of what's on the road ahead, and slow moving traffic surely doesn't require that much concentrating that you lose all peripheral vision.

I think YABU, just leave a frigging space. You won't get to your destination any faster by being a few feet forward in traffic.

In heavy traffic if you leave a gap some one behind you will start honking. I suspect most of us would leave a gap if we could see someone coming along about to cross but not over wise and if someone came along would try to reverse a little bit to let them pass if possible but if too much traffic the person will have to wait.

Driver was unreasonable. Leave a bloody space for goodness sake! Just because you're in a car doesn't mean you don't have to think about the needs of pedestrians.

Pedestrian was also unreasonable- that's no way to raise an issue with someone.

I didn't see it at the time (was concentrating on the traffic in front of me)

So potentially, you might not have noticed a pedestrian?

Sounds like dangerous driving to me.

You were careless, although you weren’t breaking the law. Take this as a lesson and leave a gap if you’re in a similar situation.

She was unnecessarily aggressive and shouldn’t have tried to damage your car.

In nose-to-tail it's basic courtesy to leave a bug- or even wheelchair-width space between you and the next car, and it doesn't hurt to do it.

In heavy traffic if you leave a gap some one behind you will start honking.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Why should someone act like a dickhead because the person behind them is ?

Let 'em honk. I will still - when in virtuous mode - leave space for a buggy or wheelchair - or just a pedestrian with neither - to cross.

You were both in the wrong, your driving was inconsiderate given that it's a crossing and she shouldn't have lost her temper.

In fairness to her though, I walk along a similar road with a similar crossing every day with a buggy and have done for years, as does my wheelchair using father. In my case, cars park on the dropped kerb, block the crossing nose to tail, abandon their cars in the middle of the road to rush their children into the school gates, park square on the pavement on both sides, drive/reverse along the pavement... you probably wouldn't believe the levels of driving selfishness and fuckwittery that exist out there. I've been hit twice whilst standing on the dropped kerb (on the pavement, in both cases by reversing cars which can't have been looking) in two years. Once whilst pushing a very visible huge purple pushchair, once whilst very pregnant. If the woman has had a few years of utter selfishness like that, maybe she's just at the end of her tether with it all.

In nose to tail traffic it’s inevitable that sometimes you’ll need to leave gaps for reasons of courtesy/Highway Code that people behind you don’t understand because they have a different view. If they’re rational human beings they’ll sigh and think “I guess that person can see something I can’t”. If they’re wankers they’ll beep and use prejudicial insults. Either way it shouldn’t affect your decision to do the right thing.

I always leave a gap (as much to be able to ensure I can get around if the car in front breaks down, or that I am not shunted into the car in front if hit from behind) and have never been beeped for it.

liminality "Sorry to derail thread, but what even is a pelican crossing?!?!?"
This is a pelican crossing, liminality.

You didn't do something aggressive deliberately, the pedestrian did. So YANBU.

A crossing is a crossing. All crossings are 'proper' if you want to split hairs.
However!
This type of crossing is one I, as a pedestrian, would wait at until traffic cleared. I would not expect traffic to slow or stop for me at this type of crossing. It's safer to just wait for a traffic-free clearing, especially if you're crossing the road with a baby/kids who are dependent on parents to be cautious and patient and wise.

That being said, I'd worry that you, as a driver, did not recognise this as a crossing! Surely you jest, OP.

You were both rough, rude, and below the belt in your reactions and words.

you probably wouldn't believe the levels of driving selfishness and fuckwittery that exist out there

Oh, I would ....

you probably wouldn't believe the levels of driving selfishness and fuckwittery that exist out there

Most drivers are pretty ignorant of what regular pedestrians have to deal with from selfish fuckwit drivers. And a lot of drivers seem to forget they are driving lethal weapons. The level of entitled dangerous driving that goes on every day is astounding if you stop to think about it.

I think all drivers should be made to go a week without their cars, and rely on walking & public transport - the standard of driving in this country would rocket upwards.

YANBU. I thought you were but apparently not:

www.trafficchoices.co.uk/traffic-schemes/refuge-island.shtml

Cars have priority over pedestrians with this type of traffic islands. It might have been kind to leave a gap but you certainly didn't have to.

Without road markings to denote it as a proper crossing, or for you to stay back then it's not really a question of who had more right at that point. As a PP said, unmarked crossings like this rely on pedestrians being patient and drivers being considerate.

I try to stick to the tyres on tarmac rule mentioned earlier, but round these parts it will earn you a beep from the driver behind. Last week, I was also in traffic like this, at lights, when the driver behind me beeped me to move forward. As I had some room, I pulled forward a bit. They beeped again, they apparently wanted to pull into a filter lane by the side of me. I pulled forward until my front parking sensors beeped constantly, indicating I was right up to the driver in front. The guy behind started leaning on his horn until the lights changed. I thought he was by this point beeping the person in front of me for not moving up too, but when the lights changed he pulled into the filter lane alongside me and gave me a load of verbal abuse for blocking the lane. Due to the layout of the junction there was nowhere I could go. If I'd not pulled forward he couldn't get to the filter lane any other way anyway.

Not exactly the same, but sadly that's only the most recent instance of it for me. Ive been beeped for leaving a gap and letting people cross in front if me. I mean what to the drivers behind me expect me to do? Run pedestrians over?!

What possible reason could you have to be so close to the car in front that a buggy couldn't get through?

BAnging on your window isn't on, but that's awful driving - you should always leave space.. what if there was a shunt behind you? You'd be straight into the car in front, no chance of anything else!

YABU not to leave a gap. I choose to use this type of crossing on my daily walk to the station rather than the Pelican crossing. It is annoying when cars decide to sit in the middle and you have to walk around them.

I certainly wouldn't say anything to the driver but have sometimes given them a shitty stare if I am in a bad mood.

what if there was a shunt behind you? You'd be straight into the car in front, no chance of anything else!

imagine if a pedestrian had managed to squeeze between the cars, and then a shunt happened ? Not sure if crushed legs are any better than severed legs (although probably less messy). Thats an adult pedestrian of course. A child pedestrian would have more to worry about.

Being taught to drive by a serving traffic offier leaves you with loads of very nasty stories.