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AIBU?

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Original poster

To assume if you are anti-abortion, you are...

431 replies

Hamandcheesebaguette · 26/05/2018 20:24

...pro a full, complete and comprehensive government benefits system to fund mothers for at least the first 5 years of her child's life?

I'll tell my story, it's not particularly interesting or traumatic, but had I not had access to a safe abortion at 6 weeks then I honest to god don't know how i would have not have ended up homeless or starving.

When I was 21, I met a man. Same age as me. I was working in an airport, leaving for work at 2.45am and usually not getting home until after 4pm. My take home pay was around £980 per month. After rent in my 1 bedroom flat in the cheapest (and also not particularly pleasant) area in my expensive city, council tax, topped up my gas and electricity meters and phone bill (I didn't even have a TV!) I had £35 left to eat and pay for buses to work for the rest of the month. After only knowing this man for 6 weeks, I found out I was pregnant. I was on the pill, maybe it failed, maybe I had missed a couple, I don't know.

Should I have had that baby... how in the hell would I have been able to provide anything for it on that wage? Oh wait, I wouldn't have had a wage at all bevause I wouldn't have had anybody to care for my baby whilst I was working full time and leaving for work in the middle of the night.

So I assume, if you are anti abortion, and I had had that baby, you also agree I should have been entitled to a reasonable council property (not covered in damp or mould or other H&S issues), my rent paid, my council tax paid, plus money provided for gas, electricity, food etc. Plus some furniture (as I always rented fully furnished and didn't have any furniture of my own at 21), a TV, broadband (or maybe I should have sat in with my baby with absolutely nothing except the walls to stare at...)

Plus possible full training paid for by the government when I could have gone back to work once this baby reached school age, as I wouldn't have been a very attractive job applicant by this point.

AIBU to assume this is tour stance if you insist I should have been forced to have been a mother when I didn't want to be one, couldn't afford to be one?

OP posts:
BrandNewHouse · 27/05/2018 12:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 12:49

MiggeldyHiggins

That's my point, Miggledy. Access to abortion isn't an 'abstract' issue because there are countries where women don't have it. Forced abortion isn't an 'abstract' issue either. Nor is lack of welfare provision. These are all real issues, as worthy of debate as one another.

What the other poster was trying to do was to close down my argument on the basis that some of my points were 'speculative' or 'abstract', and my point is that there is an 'abstract' side to the argument, but also a practical side. It isn't fair to argue morals or philosophical or abstract points on your own side of a debate, only to attempt to dismiss someone else on the basis that what they are saying is abstract etc. It is fallacious and irrational.

Xenia · 27/05/2018 12:55

late term abortions are very rare in the UK although I don't really see the ethical difference between killing the baby at 12 weeks and at 9 months. In fact I could make a case that if you think the child is disabled but are not sure given that English law allows abortion up to 9 months for disabled babies if you were told there were a 25% chance of down's or some other disability, is it reall morally worse to wait 5 minutes until it is born to check for sure and then do the killing than abort 5 minutes before when there is still a 75% chance it has no disability?

GreenTulips · 27/05/2018 12:58

I don't support abortion, and I do think it is murder. I know it's not a popular opinion but that is what I believe

Do you donate to baby charities or raise funds to support struggling mothers? To you offer to do childcare so a parent can work? Do you help the mother with a disabled child to give her a break? Do you suppprt those with mental health issues or addiction issues?

Lizzie48 · 27/05/2018 13:00

I don't support abortion, and I do think it is murder. I know it's not a popular opinion but that is what I believe

Don't be ridiculous, of course it isn't. In an idea world there wouldn't be any abortions obviously. But we're not living in an ideal world. I don't like abortion but IMO it's the lesser of evils. The alternative of going back to mass orphanages and street children doesn't bear thinking about. Or children growing up severely neglected and abused by their parents, who didn't want them.

As I said earlier, my DNephew is a relinquished baby. We love him to pieces but my DSis is going to have to explain to him one bay that his birth mum didn't want him and hasn't even told anyone in her family that he exists. He won't know who his father is. Also, if abortion was illegal, there would be far more unwanted babies, meaning children like him and my DDs could easily have ended up languishing in the care system.

There isn't an ideal solution, there never will be.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 27/05/2018 13:27

What the other poster was trying to do was to close down my argument on the basis that some of my points were 'speculative' or 'abstract', and my point is that there is an 'abstract' side to the argument, but also a practical side. It isn't fair to argue morals or philosophical or abstract points on your own side of a debate, only to attempt to dismiss someone else on the basis that what they are saying is abstract etc. It is fallacious and irrational.

And not what was happening either. There isn't a practical aspect to the argument you're making because it isn't one being seriously advocated anywhere. This is a fact. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. There is a practical aspect to discussion about stopping or severely restricting abortion, because that's actually happening. In the UK. This is also a fact. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not.

Thehogfather · 27/05/2018 13:31

Not at all sensory. Many pregnancies start off as unwanted/ unplanned, but that doesn't mean that once born it isn't any less loved than a planned child. And in reverse wanted, planned pregnancies can result in unloved dc. How you feel about a baby/ child you have given birth to is not the result of how you feel about the foetus.

I'd be really surprised if any of the victims of the laundries and other forced adoption schemes actually wanted to be pregnant and have a child, but once those babies had been born it's ridiculous to suggest the mothers felt any different about their babies than anyone else. And attitudes like yours are one of the reasons society justified the torture of all those victims, pretending that they didn't have the same feelings as other mothers.

LassWiADelicateAir · 27/05/2018 13:42

attitudes like yours are one of the reasons society justified the torture of all those victims, pretending that they didn't have the same feelings as other mothers

That is utter nonsense. The treatment of those women was on the basis of their being seen as fallen women, immoral women, sluts- women whose babies should be taken from them because they were not good enough to be mothers.

It had nothing to do with and took no account of what those women felt about their babies.

stevie69 · 27/05/2018 13:58

Well if you have sex there is a chance of pregnancy - surely you know that before hand?

Well, yes; I do indeed know that. I'm a 51 year old, pre menopausal (as far as I can tell) woman. I've never wanted any children. So ..... would you really expect me to have remained a virgin until I'm 55 or so? I'd have missed out on all the fun; there again, I'd missed out on a shed load of shit, too 😝

Seriously, is that what you're suggesting?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/05/2018 14:27

MistressDeeCee, if we followed your suggestion and fathers were compelled by law to pay maintenance and jailed if they didn't, it would create a very strong motivation for q men to destroy pregnancies. We already hear of men trying - and succeeding - to "kick the baby out of her". This would happen more - a lot more - often if the law was changed.

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 14:30

I'd have missed out on all the fun

I am pro-choice, but surely you can't expect a person who thinks abortion is unacceptable to think this consideration justifies it?

BoldKitties · 27/05/2018 14:46

Well if you have sex there is a chance of pregnancy - surely you know that before hand?

Seriously? A good friend of mine is married. She and her husband don't want children. Should my friend never have sex with her husband just in case, despite taking precautions, they have an accidental pregnancy?

I'm an Irish woman who travelled to England for an abortion. I was 17, on the pill, and we were also using condoms. It was the right decision for DP and I. It was difficult, and painful (physically and emotionally), but it was still the right decision.

You can call me a murderer. It won't be the first time I've been attacked like that. It was still the right decision.

I'm still over the moon at the result of the Referendum. I'm probably not as articulate as normal, I'm too caught up in being delighted at how this vote has gone. DP and I have nieces, and we are thrilled that they will have bodily autonomy and control over their reproductive systems. That's all.

So debate away, but ultimately, the women of Ireland, Mná na hEireann, are celebrating. Or, well, lots of us are anyway.

stevie69 · 27/05/2018 15:29

I am pro-choice, but surely you can't expect a person who thinks abortion is unacceptable to think this consideration justifies it?

@Pengggwn

Well, doesn't it? What other options do I have? You stated earlier that 'sex isn't compulsory'. True. Neither are smoking, drinking, makeup, gym memberships, mobile phones, cars, the internet, Mumsnet .... I could go on. An 'ON However, they are a normal part of life these days. As is sex.

My question again — to those who would deny a woman a termination: should I have had to remain a virgin until the menopause?

SmileEachDay · 27/05/2018 15:53

Bold I am delighted for your nieces and all my Irish sisters. It’s a step away from women being controlled by church and state.

BoldKitties · 27/05/2018 16:28

Thank you, SmileEachDay. It's been a very emotional few weeks. I've literally been crying my eyes out since yesterday. It's very hard to explain. For years I have felt like I did something wrong. I've been called a murderer. To know that a huge majority of people in my country stand with me, support me in the choices I have made. That is increadible.

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 16:54

stevie69

If someone believes in the sanctity of life, your sex life isn't going to trump that. So yes, they are going to think you should either stay a virgin or have the baby if you conceive one.

stevie69 · 27/05/2018 16:59

If someone believes in the sanctity of life, your sex life isn't going to trump that. So yes, they are going to think you should either stay a virgin or have the baby if you conceive one

Maybe. But .....I'd be interested to hear what they actually think, rather than hear you telling me what you think they think.

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 17:01

stevie69

But isn't it rather obvious?

stevie69 · 27/05/2018 17:03

But isn't it rather obvious?

No!

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 17:05

stevie69

What? Why wouldn't it be clear that a person who believes life is sacred, doesn't also think your sexy time is sacred?

I don't get that at all.

SensoryOverlord · 27/05/2018 17:07

If someone believes in the sanctity of life, your sex life isn't going to trump that. So yes, they are going to think you should either stay a virgin or have the baby if you conceive one

I'd be interested to hear what they actually think, rather than hear you telling me what you think they think

I think it's pretty obvious that someone who's pro-life will be of the opinion that you should birth any baby you conceive Confused It's hardly something that you would need telling is it as that's the very definition of being pro-life.

UNLESS of course you just want to hear it from the horses mouth to enable you to have a massive go at the horse 🙄

stevie69 · 27/05/2018 17:09

I don't get that at all.

No probs. You don't need to 'get it'.

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 17:10

stevie69

I don't 'need' to, no. I suspect you know that it is fairly obvious, to be honest.

stevie69 · 27/05/2018 17:14

I think it's pretty obvious that someone who's pro-life will be of the opinion that you should birth any baby you conceive confused It's hardly something that you would need telling is it as that's the very definition of being pro-life

I didn't ask whether they thought I should give birth to a conceived baby; I asked if they expected me to remain a virgin until the menopause.

UNLESS of course you just want to hear it from the horses mouth to enable you to have a massive go at the horse 🙄

Rather presumptuous of you. Do I have a track record of 'having a go at the horse? No? Thought not Hmm I want to hear it from the horse's mouth as that's usually the most reliable source of information. I don't need third parties making an educated guess because they deem it 'obvious'.

Pengggwn · 27/05/2018 17:15

I didn't ask whether they thought I should give birth to a conceived baby; I asked if they expected me to remain a virgin until the menopause

Why would they? What does remaining a virgin have to do with an anti-abortion position?

This is very odd.