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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Women who have children before marriage

968 replies

FissionChips · 22/05/2018 01:20

..but get upset when their partner does not want to/ has not asked to marry them , yet still insist they are too traditional to even contemplate asking their dp to marry them or just discussing it like adults.

I dont get it. Most of the complaining women give the child their partners surname as well which isn’t even traditional if the parents are not married. They live together for years. They are in no way following tradition.
AIBU to not understand why they lie about being “traditional “?

OP posts:
PoorYorick · 23/05/2018 20:34

In theory I would have no problem with straight people having access to CPs. I just don't see why you'd want to given that you've already got a much better alternative.

And this being the case, and CPs being rooted in a wondrous blend of both marriage AND homophobia, I don't see them being extended any time soon. The system already exists, use it if you want it.

SchnitzelVonKrumm · 23/05/2018 20:35

My mum never wanted to be married, and when she unexpectedly found herself pregnant nearly 50 years ago chose to bring me up single handedly. She had friends who tried other forms of relationship - open marriages, communal living (it was the 70s!). Mostly they ended in tears but those people were sincerely trying to find an alternative to the patriarchal institution of marriage - she and they would have regarded aping marriage in form and convention but without the legal protections it offers as completely daft.

PoorYorick · 23/05/2018 20:37

I can't think of a single culture or society, past and present, that didn't have marriage in some shape or form. Even if it's polygamous marriage. Every society seems to think there should be some sort of official recognition of a relationship available where property and/or children are concerned.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 23/05/2018 20:41

If by covered you mean spluttered at but not refuted toomanytealights, yes you have. But CP in the UK has homophobic connotations. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's what happened. They othered gay people. They were introduced to try and get round full equality. That's literally homophobia.

If you want one, you're accepting entering into an institution with homophobic connotations. It doesn't make you homophobic, but then nobody said it did. It does mean you're actively choosing something with a homophobic history.

zsazsajuju · 23/05/2018 20:45

Gosh, I love these threads. Project v (or whatever you’re called) it’s way more than 3% of women who outearn their male partners. It’s more like at least a quarter if not more (depending how you measure it). You might not be able to envisage earning your own money but you’re not everyone.

As I often mention on these threads if I had married my ex (he was keen) I would be a lot worse off financially on our break up. Cos I earn more and had more assets (from years of saving). So glad to say I didn’t.

If you want a meal ticket man you do of course need to get married. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having children outside of marriage if you can look after them (and lots of married people do a terrible job of looking after their kids same as non marrieds and vice versa). So enough with being down on single mothers- we rock. Marriage doesn’t work for everyone or is it advantageous to everyone.

zsazsajuju · 23/05/2018 20:49

And all the next of kin Krap people spout on these threads is nuts. No such thing in English law. Whether or not you get any benefits from your spouse/partners final salary pension depends on the rules of the scheme, being married doesn’t necessarily make any difference. And married people can change their will and disinherit their spouse in England if they like. And so on.

SandyY2K · 23/05/2018 20:51

YANBU

I am perplexed by women claiming to be traditional and wanting marriage, yet having kids out of marriage.

It's fine if both have the same view and don't want marriage...but if you really want to get married...stand your ground or walk away.

It's harder to walk away from the relationship once you have kids and the man knows it.

Marriage is still a very unbalanced societal institution where women get to be picked by men as being worthy and need that validation from a proposal

I'd say marriage is a mutual picking. The proposal is by the by and is a traditional formality....because couples who both want marriage tend to discuss it at some point in the relationship.

LoveInTokyo · 23/05/2018 20:52

“And married people can change their will and disinherit their spouse in England if they like.”

They can, but their widow can challenge the will in court and has a good chance of success. The unmarried partner will get nowhere.

Toomanytealights · 23/05/2018 20:54

By your logic I could say those getting married are entering into something with homophobic connotations. As my son pointed out the bible says a man being with a man is wrong and hates boys like him. Marriage originated from the church,it excluded gay couples for years.

We can all twist things to make ridiculous accusations all we like.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 23/05/2018 20:55

Yes, the gulf between the ability a widowed spouse has to challenge being disinherited and the ability a bereaved cohabitant has is massive. This is one of the reasons why those of you who think you're secure because of your partner's watertight will are wrong. Speaking of lulling people into a false sense of security.

LoveInTokyo · 23/05/2018 20:56

“Marriage originated from the church,it excluded gay couples for years.”

Yes, the church invented marriage. It definitely didn’t exist as a concept before Christianity.

Grin
Helpmeplan · 23/05/2018 20:56

Cannot give your assets free of cgt to a partner, but can a husband/wife. Cannot double the iht threshold for your children unless you are married. You can tell me not many people won't hit it, because where I live a 3 bed terrace is nearly 300k

NeedsAsockamnesty · 23/05/2018 21:00

Their marriage certificate is going to be worth an awful lot less than the protection many unmarried couples have. Both come in all shapes and sizes

It I never going to be worth less than the protection a unmarried couple in the same financial situation have.

ScragginIt · 23/05/2018 21:06

I wouldn’t want to impose my awful surname on my child- it is just asking for him to be bullied. However where do you start tradition? Humans had babies before marriage existed. Marriage is a tradition borne of the church and enforced by the government- supposedly there to protect everyone’s interests; but now that divorce is commonplace, it’s just a money making scheme for all involved (except those actually getting married). I would call myself traditional and I was engaged when I got pregnant, but a wedding is an extravagance that not everyone can afford (even if you do it cheaply). My licence alone cost £250. I called off the wedding - I had more important things to spend my money on, and the change in my partner following me getting pregnant was massive to the point that I didn’t want a contract tying myself to him ‘till death do us part’, no matter how much I loved him.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 23/05/2018 21:07

By your logic I could say those getting married are entering into something with homophobic connotations. As my son pointed out the bible says a man being with a man is wrong and hates boys like him. Marriage originated from the church,it excluded gay couples for years.

You could make an argument that marriage originated from the church, but you'd be horribly, horribly wrong. Because it didn't. Marriage predates Christianity by millennia, and there are legal texts plenty older than Leviticus discussing marriage.

But really, I don't actually have any problem with someone pointing out that marriage has all kinds of unsavoury historical connotations, because it does, and that I was still willing to enter into it, because I was. Because it was the best thing for me, and there's nothing less feminist than a woman being more financially vulnerable than she needs to be. And because historically problematic connotations (rape within marriage, ownership etc) are much less important than the fact that cohabitation without marriage currently serves the interests of patriarchy so much better than marriage. And because spluttering in the face of undoubted facts is a very bad look, as you have demonstrated so conclusively this thread.

So meanwhile, CP is homophobic, and yet you still want to be part of it enough that you're advocating for it. You're going to actively choose something homophobic if you can, because for whatever reason you're happier with the problematic connotations of CP than marriage. That's up to you, but I'm going to call it what it is.

zsazsajuju · 23/05/2018 21:07

Unmarried dependent partners can challenge a will too. Either way it’s expensive to do and no guarantee of success.

Anyway my point is one huuuuge disadvantage of marriage is that your ex can waltz off with your assets or a big chunk of them. People can plan their lives as they choose. I choose to depend on myself.

ToEarlyForDecorations · 23/05/2018 21:09

It is the "he doesn't think you are good enough to marry you" attitude I hate.

Why ?

HOW many times do I have to hear the story of a couple that split up after years together and the guy is married a few months later to somebody else ?

A couple could be together for ages, have kids, house etc but both are still single ? What's that about ?

Who's hedging their bets her or him ?

Toomanytealights · 23/05/2018 21:10

Saying " you're fine with homophobia then" is just goady,unpleasant and belittles homophobia.It is also a lot different than accusing somebody of entering into something with homophobic connotations particularly when the status quo which gave it such connotations has completely changed.

zsazsajuju · 23/05/2018 21:12

And cmon - cohabitation outside marriage serves the patriarchy? Eh? Isn’t it being financially dependent on a man that serves the patriarchy? Why not avoid that by getting a job

ToEarlyForDecorations · 23/05/2018 21:13

Why do people live together without benefit of marriage (thank you Judge Judy) then come back down to earth with a bump when it all turns to custard. Not so smug now with your 'marriage is only a piece of paper' narrative are you ?

zsazsajuju · 23/05/2018 21:14

I do agree that in some situations (but not all) one partner is waiting for someone better to come along and that’s why they don’t get married. Or they’re not sure enough about the relationship. That was the case for me.

zsazsajuju · 23/05/2018 21:15

I am too early!!!! I am really smug about not getting married and me and my dcs being financially MUCH better off as a result.

Toomanytealights · 23/05/2018 21:16

Toearly funnily enough I don't know anybody in RL where that happened.Hmm

So cp as an idea in every country is homophobic and by taking part in it you are happy with homophobia.I call that goady bs.

OMGafourth · 23/05/2018 21:21

My husband and I had our first before marriage. We had a scare after a smear (cervical cancer seems to run in the family, unfortunately). Once we got the all clear we made the decision not to wait...
But I proposed, as he was taking too long!

NameChanger22 · 23/05/2018 21:26

I love being a single parent, raising my child myself, making all the decisions myself and supporting both us with no help from anyone. I love my independence and freedom. Working hard and owning a house gives us all the security we need.

Nothing on earth would ever make me want to have sex with a man, live with a man or marry a man. None of that would benefit us in any way. We are perfectly happy as a family of two. My decisions are right for my family, I don't know why anyone cares what we do??