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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be appalled by Grenfell all over again.

166 replies

derxa · 21/05/2018 20:04

The enquiry has made cry and cry. The families' statements. So terrible.

OP posts:
BitOutOfPractice · 05/06/2018 13:33

Did the council have no crisis plan? It's just appalling

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 14:01

"Grenfell Tower was turned into a “death trap” by “dangerous” refurbishment work carried out by the local authority and tenants management organisation, the inquiry into the fire has been told.

On the ninth day of the hearing, Danny Friedman QC, speaking on behalf of the law firms representing survivors and the bereaved, said they were watching the inquiry with “calm rage”.

Cladding fitted to the outside of Grenfell Tower turned it into a death trap, he said. “The royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the tenants management organisation did this [refurbishment] with public funds paid to an array of contractors and sub-contractors – none of whom have yet taken any responsibility for what happened.

“Residents and many people told them that this would happen but they were fobbed off and certainly not treated as equals. Seventy-two people died. Those who escaped owed their survival to chance rather than as a result of assessments or contingency planning by the fire brigade.”

The building works were “obviously dangerous, reprehensible and contrary to regulations”, Friedman said. “The [fire brigade] failed to realise quickly enough that this was a fire that could not be fought and required evacuation that could not be delayed.”
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Earlier, lawyers for the Metropolitan police told the inquiry that the scale of the criminal investigation into the fire was “unprecedented and extremely demanding”.

Jeremy Johnson QC, for the force, said: “The criminal investigation is progressing in accordance with intended timescales.” He revealed that the building would be released from being considered as a crime scene by July or August.

Stephanie Barwise, counsel for the same group of law firms representing residents, said: “Of the six commonly recognised layers of protection against fire, namely prevention, detection, evacuation, suppression, compartmentation and the resistance of the structure to fire, at Grenfell Tower, five of those layers failed. That the structure survived is testament to its original solid concrete, virtually incombustible construction.”
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Barwise pointed to many previous examples of cladding fires around the world. “Since the turn of the century, both internationally and in the UK, fires involving external cladding systems have become almost the archetypal form of mass fire disaster,” she said.

“This fact put construction and fire engineering professionals on notice of the imperative to develop their risk assessment systems accordingly; and also ought to have informed fire brigade contingency planning. Industry openly acknowledges that polyethylene equates to petrol.”

Turning to the building contractors, Barwise said: “Despite their words of condolence to the victims, these corporates have no desire to assist this inquiry, even though their participation could save lives in the immediate future. The inability to produce a basic account of how, if at all, they considered Grenfell Tower complied with the building regulations is itself indicative of a culture of non-compliance.

“The corporates’ silence deprives the families of the degree of resolution and understanding to which they are entitled, and has only served to increase their pain and uncertainty. It is inhumane to remain silent when so many seek understanding and answers: answers which are within the corporates’ gift.”

Sam Stein QC, representing another group of survivors and residents, told the inquiry: “The loss of life was wholly avoidable.... The very safety system that was meant to preserve life had been perverted into a fire killing system.”

Exova Warrington, the fire safety consultants used in the refurbishment, had advised, Stein said, that there would be “no adverse impact” on the spread of fire by the refurbishment of the tower. How could that be so, he asked?

The TMO, he continued, managed 10,000 homes yet seems to be waiting for the inquiry to tell it why the tower was wrapped in combustible material"

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 14:33

Contracting and sub contracting work out to different parties leads to too much buck passing when things go wrong

Ive seen HAs and the companies they give contracts to pass the blame back and forth to each other when things go wrong.

This type of thing has been going on for years. Grenfell was entirely predictable.

LakieLady · 05/06/2018 15:11

Predictable, and preventable.

I will never understand why no-one involved in the design, specification or construction of the refurb thought to ask about the flammability of the cladding material proposed.

I'm also concerned about the failure of the risers. I thought these were regularly tested in high-rise buildings, but at Grenfell they didn't work. I don't think it's yet clear whether or not these were tested at the right time and failed after inspection, or whether tests were overdue.

If the former, it calls into question whether the current 6 &m 12 monthly testing interval is sufficient.

I can't believe that the residents' concerns had been ignored for so long. And I don't think any one organisation individual will ever be called to account for it.

Ultimately, a landlord is responsible for safety of their properties, so imo the blame ultimately lies with K&CC, but I'm bloody positive no-one will be losing their job for this, let alone go to prison.

It's unbelievably sad, and I'd be in tears if it didn't make me so fucking angry.

madmomma · 05/06/2018 15:15

Yet the tower blocks near me in greater Manchester are still clad in the same stuff. Half ripped off but noone in any hurry to sort it out. Just appalling.

Ecadia · 05/06/2018 15:22

I live in London in one of 12 blocks on our development that have the same cladding and insulation. We have a waking watch 24/7 but these people have been caught smoking in the buildings and sleeping in the stairwell. Nothing has been done to get the cladding off. It seems that it is not being taken seriously even after seeing what happened at grenfell.

Luisa27 · 05/06/2018 15:31

Me too OP - it’s heartbreaking

BitOutOfPractice · 05/06/2018 15:37

Contracting and sub contracting work out to different parties leads to too much buck passing when things go wrong

In addition it leads to cost- and corner-cutting too as each party in the chain tries to wring some profit from it. Which is nigh-on impossible when social housing budgets are cut to the bone

YesBarry · 05/06/2018 15:45

Ultimately, a landlord is responsible for safety of their properties, so imo the blame ultimately lies with K&CC, but I'm bloody positive no-one will be losing their job for this, let alone go to prison

No one will be found responsible. No corporate manslaughter charges will be brought.

If anyone does get blamed it will be some low down employee who really wasn’t THAT responsible for the entire corporate and structural failure to protect people.

See every other single disaster ever where shitty corporate culture and corner cutting led regarding safety led to deaths or environmental disaster.

BitOutOfPractice · 05/06/2018 15:46

I predict it'll get passed down to someone at the cladding company...

YesBarry · 05/06/2018 15:48

@HelenaDove I’ve always found your posts on these topics interesting and informative. Re a PP saying you’re ‘over involved’ we bloody need people to be ‘over involved’ in many aspects of life where there are injustices worthy fighting for.

MissionItsPossible · 05/06/2018 15:59

@YesBarry Tue 05-Jun-18 15:45:40
If anyone does get blamed it will be some low down employee who really wasn’t THAT responsible for the entire corporate and structural failure to protect people.

I was surprised that more blame wasn't laid at the poor man who started the fire in the first place. I mean, I'm glad there wasn't, but thought some of the more righter wing of our press would try and demonise him. To my knowledge, that didn't happen.

expatinscotland · 05/06/2018 16:41

The entire 'inquiry' is just an exercise is posturing and making excuses. 'Lessons will be learned' but no one will ever be held accountable for all those people's deaths Sad.

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 20:46

Mission a lot of blame has been laid unfairly at his door. Someone who i follow who lives in the area has been collating racist classist, and victim blaming tweets aimed at him and other Grenfell residents This has been going on since just weeks after the fire and AFAIK there have been no arrests for this behaviour yet.

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 20:47

And the aforementioned buck passing begins Angry

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/05/grenfell-tower-cladding-firm-denies-responsibility-for-fire-spread

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 20:57

Yes Barry Thanks Thanks

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 21:07

Upcoming programmes.

Wednesday 6th June 9pm ITV1 Grenfell.........The First 24 Hours.

Friday 8th June 730pm Channel 4 Dispatches After Grenfell: How Safe Are We

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 21:09

Two more upcoming programmes.

Grenfell. 8.30pm Monday 11th June BBC1 Made by Ben Anthony who did the documentary 7/7 One Day in London

He started filming the day after the fire and recorded the impact on the community, in relief centres temp accomodation , hotels peoples homes and on the streets.

Wednesday 13th June 9pm BBC2 Before Grenfell A Hidden History

HelenaDove · 05/06/2018 21:19

RNLI and Cornwall Hugs Grenfell What a kind and beautiful thing to do.

rnli.org/news-and-media/2018/may/16/the-rnli-and-cornwall-hugs-bring-smiles-to-children-following-grenfell-tragedy

HelenaDove · 06/06/2018 13:54

"One of our clients was retired, elderly and blind. He lived on the 11th floor, formerly the eighth floor before the refurbishment. He had lived in the tower for 36 years and was able to work his way around, prior to the refurbishment. However, there was no consultation with him about signage, or allowances for his disability as a part of the refurbishment process. On the night of the fire when his daughter-in-law rang 999, she was told to tell him to get out of the tower if he could. He could not, and was condemned to die"

ShatnersWig · 06/06/2018 14:15

Am I right in believing that the Police have said their investigation hasn't yet concluded and that they are still considering corporate manslaughter charges?

What seems particularly unusual with Grenfell is that EVERYONE seems to be partly responsible. After the actual issues with the building which could lie at the manufacturers of the cladding, the contractors who used the cladding, the management company and council for not listening to the concerned residents, the government for fire safety legislation, even the fire brigade for failing to evacuate for two hours when it was clear much earlier the way things were going.

MissEliza · 07/06/2018 16:26

The ITV programme was very well done and conveyed just how awful it was for those involved. The people watching felt so helpless and angry. The retired firefighter who was interviewed was so modest. Apparently he's refused counselling. I don't know how you can deal with that on your own.
It now seems reasonable to say that people should have been told to leave their homes earlier but I have perhaps a silly question. How quickly can you actually evacuate 350 people down 21 floors when there's only one staircase? That's not even taking into account the elderly and disabled. (I don't know how a disabled person is expected to live above say the second floor Angry). People may have escaped the flames only to be injured in a crush or by toxic smoke. Can it ever be safe to live in a high rise without a second staircase or at least water sprinklers?

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