SATs - aibu to opt out, withdraw child from testing?

[MrsOprah]

I did my SATs 20 years ago. Think they were a fairly new concept in the 90s(?) They were fine, scored well, no pressure really was bright child and did extended papers too.
Was described as a way to know where to level kids, results were used by secondary school to decided if you'd be in top-mid-low set for maths, sci, eng.
Obv longer term it has no affect on earnings potential, not put on cv or uni application, so minor benefits had as the test taker.

Nowadays, they seem to be a HUGE deal. Masses of pressure, painted as important! All for schools benefit. Not for kids well being. On that basis, WIBU to ask/decline for my child to sit the tests?

Tessliketrees

I think parents would want to know how their child's results mapped to the performance of the school. Perhaps what you suggest would work, but I honestly don't think so.

@Pengggwn

Parents would like a lot of things they don't get. This would be another and if properly explained I don't see the issue.

I haven't seen a better one that retains the SATs as a concept.

My eldest is doing SATS. We’ve just told her to do her best. They are having a breakfast every morning at school and a wind down straight after. She isn’t concerned and nor are we.

Tessliketrees

I would have no problem with the idea being mooted, but wouldn't support it as a parent. I would want my DC's scores.

I would want my DC's scores

I would want mine, but again I want a lot of things I can't have.

If the idea is truly to test the schools and teachers then let's do that. Let's make it clear and obvious.

I would want my DC's general grade / band (my DCs are older, so we're from the 3/4c/4b/4a/5/6 generation - and IME that was plenty detailed enough).

I am happy for the primary, and the secondary they are going to, to have these too.

I am not wildly bothered about having the overall school's grades (a comparison with national would be fine e.g. 'your child got a grade 5, which was awarded to 20% of the age group nationally').

I don't want the school's results to be shared with anyone other than those who need to know - governors, LA/Academy chain, inspectors if required. in particular, it should not be compiled in any way into a local or national league table.

My dd is in year 11 and her predicted GCSE grades given still take year 6 SATs into consideration. added pressure in some cases as the grades they expect her to gain based on SATs are 9s, when realistically subject teachers have said 7s so the school have given extra tuition to help her get her to get the grade 9s.

Tessliketrees

But I can have it. It's only if the status quo changes that I wouldn't be able to have it, and I don't see that happening without popular support for the idea of our kids taking exams but none of us knowing how they did. Can't see that happening either!

I am a teacher and when DS and DD go to school they will not be doing any formal tests in primary school. They will stay at home those days.

@Pengggwn

Fair point.

I mean, I am happy for the school's overall results to be used for 'informed accountability purposes' e.g. by the DfE, Ofsted, LA, Academy chain, governors. I am not happy, and see no reason, for them to be used for 'uninformed and context-free comparison' in e.g. published league tables. If any comparisons were to published, they should be in a way that looks at progress, within a socio-economic context, (in other words using analysis that is detailed enough to subtract the effects of intake and leave only the effects of the school), but tbh primaries are too small for that to be possible in any meaningful way, so IME they should not be published or shared with the general public at all.

Lulu,

So no times table tests, spelling tests, termly tests of any kind at all? No 'let's do this comprehension by ourselves in silence for a few minutes, then we will look at our answers together?' IME as a primary teacher, if you want your child to have no formal testing at all in primary, and would keep them at home on relevant days, they would attend school about 3 days per week throughout...

The KS1 SATs are not on fixed days, and for the KS2 ones you would need to keep them off for 10 days plus most days in the preceding terms as in many schools a practice question or two under normal 'test conditions' form part and parcel of teachiong for much of Y6, not top mention assessable writing throughout the year.

So 3 days per week for KS1 and years 3-5, all of Y6 off and about 4 weeks in the summer term of Year 2 to avoid the possibility of any assessments?

Your premise is, I feel, flawed.

@cantkeepawayforever

The argument against that is that parents from poorer areas should be given the choice to send their child to a school that has better results.

By hiding that information from parents you are not letting them give their children a chance that middle class children have by default simply by living in a nicer area.

Of course the way I understand it is that catchment area still rules so I am not sure that this argument even has theoretical merit.

All the schools in my area are terrible in the national league tables anyway (reinforcing my point) so I didn't really have to worry about it.

Ah, I don't live in an area with effective choice, as there are so few places (I think 1 was unallocated in the whole large town on allocation day last year). Basically, you can't choose a different school from your nearest - they won't admit you, because they are over-subscribed with people who live closer than you do. So a family living in the effective catchment of school A can't choose School B, however much better its results - and nor can a family living in the catchment of B choose A. Parental choice is a myth.

I think sats work on really flawed logic that force feeding facts will result in higher pass rates. I really don’t understand why months and months of repetition is supposed to aid long term learning. To me it sounds like a sure fire way to put kids of learning!

We home educate and have done zero preparation for sats. My daughter reads a lot and is naturally interested in maths. I threw last years sats papers at her a few weeks ago (to check for potential gaps) and she got exceeding expectations on maths and reading and a high meeting expectations in the spelling and grammar paper (we have done no work on this at all, I just told her to use logic to work out what the questions wanted her to put). I don’t feel any need to do any extra papers with her, I can tell she is learning and can logic her way through questions she doesn’t automatically know the answers to. I honestly think she did ok on the spelling and grammar paper because of how much time she spends reading good quality books. I think if she had to dissect sentence structure over and over again she probably would have achieved a far lower mark and certainly would get a lot less pleasure from it.

I think most people’s issue with sats is not assessing kids, it’s the fact the whole of year 6 is focussed on them to the detriment of other subjects and children’s well being in general.

@cantkeepawayforever

I agree, I just wanted to point out and oppose the argument pre-preemptively =D

Also if you pause and think about the concept it truly is terrible. Choice only works if there are "good" and "bad" schools to choose from. We are offered no league tables on anything other than academic achievement. The concept accepts that some schools should be poorer than others and those schools should continue to get worse until... what? They go into special measures? Then what? How do you repair that damage to reputation?

You can't apply free market theory to public services.

I think most people’s issue with sats is not assessing kids, it’s the fact the whole of year 6 is focussed on them to the detriment of other subjects and children’s well being in general.

Yes, but we force schools into that position by the importance many parents, and the public at large, put on the judgements about schools - league tables and Ofsted results - that are dependent on SATs results.

If we show schools that SATs matter - by denigrating schools with poor SATs results and lauding those with high ones, even if the former school actually does a better job at educating a more difficult cohort, and by seeking out schools with Outstanding gradings - then we should not be surprised that schools respond by training their pupils to so well in the tests, by whatever means.

No one has yet explained what benefit these have for the children which outweigh the negative impact as seen by the increased incidences of under 11 being referred for mental health provision? Or why a year (and often more - starting in year 4 in my DDs case) of cramming by the school at the expense of learning a broad curriculum will benefit education in the long term?

Anyone care to enlighten me?

taratill

Well for my less able and less confident DD the benefits were:

• facing a challenge and overcoming it, leading to improved self confidence
• consolidating and solidifying core skills in English and Maths prior to moving up to secondary
• improved test taking technique, which has stood her in good stead in secondary

Our school took a balanced approach to SATs so the children didn't get over stressed.

Teen that's great. Did she do the SATS in the last 2 years though or the previous ones which were less demanding?

If she did the current ones then I'm glad she had a good experience.

I'm really unsure what to do with my DD and I am struggling to see any benefit so thank you for your response.

tara Yes, 2 years ago, first year of the new format.

I was quite worried as to how she would cope, but we chatted about how to approach the tests. e.g. 'those last questions on the maths are for top table kids, you don't need to worry about trying them', and 'if you can't do something miss it out and go back if you have time' and 'we just want you to try your best, and we will be happy'.

The actual SATs week was quite fun, they had breakfast at school, and extra playtime. On the Friday they had bacon sandwiches and a trip to the park.

But the school approach can make a big difference I think. The schools that over pressure, or keep talking about getting 100 etc aren't doing the children any favours. So I can see why different people have different opinions re SATs and stress.

Thanks Teen . My 12 year old was too stressed to take his SATS, he had other things going on and was signed off sick at the time.

He would have taken them in the second year that they were in the new format.

I have noticed a change in the way school are teaching year 4 now as compared to how he was taught in year 4 which is what is bothering me. Too much emphasis already on the SPAG at the expense of other learning.

Ah SPaG . That is a whole other matter. That is the NC driving that more so than the SATs. There's a whole bunch of G that I think is not necessary at primary. I think more emphasis on core SPaG is probably good, but the 'harder' grammar is not, in my opinion.

DD would have been better off not being attempted (and not succeeding) to be taught the harder grammar, but instead re-enforcing the basics.

Exactly, my DD struggles with spelling and basic writing, it is driving me nuts that she is now expected to work beyond her level to learn grammar that is not even required at high school, without the basics being sorted.

Took my kids out of a school that does well in the league tables, has a nice recent Ofsted, gets the results academically (I'd sent them there because it was our most local school and I do believe in kids being educated within their own community where possible - my interest in league tables was minimal, and mainly confined to nebbing where schools I'd taught previously were coming that year). It was getting those results by doing shite like putting year 1 kids through weeks and weeks of "mock phonics screen tests" and absolutely piling pressure on the kids, testing them constantly, jumping on every single recent fad to squeeze an extra point on SATs results... the lot.

Moved them - and thank goodness I did, DD1 would be a prime target for them to have pressurised her to bring in the test results as she's academically very very able - but she's also incredibly highly strung and easily stressed out and it sends her behaviour absolutely off the wall when she's feeling emotionally off-kilter. Where she is now they keep everything much more low-key and as low-pressure as they can for the kids and it's definitely a much healthier environment for them.

I'm not anti-SATs, fuck it I used to mark them (stopped when it went to on-screen marking after giving it a try and getting so fucked off with their system that it was stressing me out) but the way some schools are getting the results is bloody appalling.

Incidentally at least a couple of other parents have moved their kids from the same school we did for exactly the same reasons (mostly teacher parents as well) since we started the exodus.