To think funding new grammar and faith schools is a bad idea.

[ConstantlyCold]

Just that really. This will benefit pushy middle classes (like me) but not the kids that really need investing in.

Stupid idea.

I am a supporter of grammar schools, as long as they sit alongside other specialist schools of equivalent quality. There are schools which specilaise in sport for those children who excel at sport, there are schools that specialise in art/drama/music for the children who excel in those subjects, there are specialist language schools, specialist maths/computing schools. Why shouldn't there also be schools that specialise in the sort of rigorous academic education that some children excel at? In whatever activity you are doing, being surrounded by like-minded people of similiar ability helps you to up your game. If the ability is football or dance, no one has an issue about training those kids together. It's only for academic ability where some people have an issue. I really don't think that the problem is grammar schools themselves, it's that in some places, where there is a grammar system the other school options are simply poor.

In my (grammar) area, if you don't go to a grammar school the choice of other schools is excellent in theory; there's a specialist sports school, a language school, a performing arts school, a maths/computing school, a science/tech school plus the grammar. But in practice, two of these schools were in special measures and only one is 'outstanding'. So there is a big fight to get into the grammar schools and lots of children are tutored. But parents wouldn't feel they needed to do that if the other schools on offer were also good schools where kids could get a decect education whilst following their specialist interest. Funnily enough, the most popular school in the town isn't actually the grammar - it's a huge comprehensive with a grammar stream. Kids can move in and out of the grammar stream depending on how they are doing - it's a great model. But unless you are in catchment, the only way to get in is to go for the grammar stream (by sitting the 11+) or the schools own specialist entry test.

Will stop now as I've waffled long enough!

Far fewer per head of population in London and the SE by a long chalk.

It’s also interesting to note how many are in Labour controlled areas.

As I say, MightyMucks - my kids' school is 'shit' according to that list. But it's not.

And Trillis, increasingly, non-selective schools are demonstrating just how ridiculous the assertion is that only a tiny percentage of children thrive on a 'rigorous academic education', or are even capable of accessing it. It's a deeply divisive and damaging assumption.

One of our schools is on that list and it's truly awful. And it has been for a very long time.

newyear

i just did

I asked for studies showing that grammar schools improve social mobility. Have I missed a post? I can’t see a link to anything.

trilis on with the you on want to see more schools with different specialisms look at brit schools and how it's helped people like Adele.. All that talent may have been lost elsewhere.

Sounds a brilliant idea to have different schools for different things and so on, but as the funding is coming from the government and the tories seem to like the old way of Grammer v secondary modern ( or comps) then it wont happen everywhere - which is a shame as it would give parents much more choice for their child and would be tailored to each need so to speak. I wonder if this would cost more to do though?
everything boils down to money in the end!

Rosa
What do you think it is, exactly, that makes that school 'awful'? What might improve it?

The money should be spent on ordinary mainstream education and special schools.

spikeyball, i agree - much fairer all round.
seems to be an agenda though and its always the Tories that do it - they hated the comprehensive system and probably want it abolished and go back to the 1950s.

I know why 2 of our local schools are in that list

And funnily enough they are not filled with white MC kids either . One of them is (I suspect ) why Toby Young started his ‘free school’ presumably as it was in his catchment area given his column

That said - I see one close to me has new school uniforms and has been re branded so hopefully they will rise up off the list

Grades, attitudes.. I have no idea what would improve it but I know it's been failing pupils for decades. Slight up and down improvement but always had bad rep.

Pupils behaviour outside school appalling ie swearing at toddlers.. Sparking up second get off school property, difficult behaviour leaving the school ie kicking bins over, running into road. I spoke to one lady whose dd wen there said she cried everyday begged her mum to send her elsewhere for a levels and due to massive teacher issues she had to hire her tutor to get her through gcses.

The funding is needed most in comps, something just about everyone knows. This is typical of the tories. Fuck the poor, they don't need an education anyway since they’ll spend their lives wasting away on a council estate either on benefits or earning min wage.

Faith schools area outrageous. No child should go to a school where they are potentially taught that one religion is superior to others and they don't get the proper opportunity to learn about all faiths. It breeds division.

Grammar schools simply encourage pushy parents and more social division. Children without pushy parents get left behind forever.

Oh bertrand, btw. You might like to have a look at this OECD study based on data from 2012 looking at 16-24 year olds who would have been through education almost entirely under a Labour government.

www.oecd.org/unitedkingdom/building-skills-for-all-review-of-england.pdf

One of the lowest rates of basic skills like literacy and numeracy in the developed world.

Even 7% of University graduates had low basic skillls.

The funding is needed most in comps, something just about everyone knows. This is typical of the tories

Then why when Labour were chucking money at schools were they producing so many illiterate non-numerate children? Was that ‘teh eviiil tories’ too?

Slight up and down improvement but always had bad rep

Reputation is a killer for schools. I know what would improve the one you're talking about: excellent leadership, great teaching, and proper funding. That's all it takes. There is no reason whatsoever why any child should be in a 'shit school' in our country today. None.

But while we persist in the myth of parental choice, and the even sillier myth that only a few children are suited to an 'academic education' between the ages of 11 and 16, the focus is likely to remain on selection - and income (either through house pricing or tutoring and cultural capital) will continue to determine young people's education experience and outcomes and, consequently, their future.

Hester our school does loads and loads on the different religions, my dc know all about buhdism, shieks, Muslims always doing visits to other places of worship.

I dislike the pushy parents thing. If every single parent in the UK wanted the best educations for thier child we wouldn't be having any discussions like this. That's all a pushy parent is and wants.

The elephant in the room and the big gap comes from state sector because they don't usually help dc in anyway with preparing for the test. I guess grammars will have to fill that gap.

It depends. A lot of grammar schools have helped the Indian community get where they are today as well, ditto with East Asians in the US (and both in the Commonwealth Realms).

Faith schools area outrageous. No child should go to a school where they are potentially taught that one religion is superior to others and they don't get the proper opportunity to learn about all faiths. It breeds division.

You've obviously had little experience of faith schools.

at the same time as SEN funding is being cut to the bone. All kids should be invested in not one group at the expense of another. So divisive but these parents are likely to be Tory voters?

(Fortunately out LA does not have any grammars but lots of C of E faith schools)

I agree mutli but other schools in area where not great either and they seemed to improve vastly over the the years. Personally I wouldn't go near them for my dc, but they are greatly improved and new comers to area known them as good schools.
The parents at dc school primary have every day first hand experience of pupils from list school, not one would send dc there.

Our state primary does very well but every single parent in dd year is engaged and wants best for dc, many recieve out side help where it's needed.

I'm not a pushy parent. Just want the best for my child. And if the choice is a shockingly bad school with bad teaching/badly behaved pupils vs a lovely school with good teachers and mostly good pupils, I'll opt for that one thanks.

There is a big difference in the debate between faith schools and grammar schools. The former invokes problems with culture and ideology, whereas the latter is about merit based education.

I am strongly against Grammar Schools and Faith schools.

I actually passed my 11+ and went to a Grammar school, but I had real motivation to do so, because the alternative in my area was appalling.

Fans of Grammar schools like to express it as 'selecting the brightest and the best and giving them the support they need to excel' or words to that effect. But it can be expressed just as easily as 'selecting the less intelligent and sending them to a school that will give them fewer academic opportunities or support so that resources aren't wasted on them, pearls before swine etc etc'. Funnily enough, fans of the Grammar system don't like to frame it like that.

Comprehensive schools with full streaming in all subjects are the answer. Not divisive class politics.

As for faith schools, it's not neccesarly the content of what is taught that I don't like (although on a case by case basis I have serious reservations about some faith schools) it's the ability to select or de-select pupils based on their religion that really grinds me. We simply wouldn't allow it in any other area, but for some reason faith schools get a free pass. They don't 'offer parents choice' as the Conservatives like to push. They offer religious parents choice, while restricting everyone else's.