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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think unversal credit is a disaster *trigger warning*

902 replies

jnfrrss · 05/05/2018 08:31

This just popped up in my feed. Talking about someone that had an abortion as they wouldn't be able to afford the child without credits. It's not just an isolated issue, a charity says they've had a huge increase in women contacting about abortions as now they won't be able to afford to have any more children. I'm not sure what the answer is but this is very worrying

www.mirror.co.uk/money/it-wasnt-planned-very-wanted-12480380

OP posts:
greystripedteepee · 06/05/2018 21:43

That article is crap. Needs to stop saying that the safety net of the benefits system has been stripped away. Let's face it, it was being abused. Let's have a third child as we can get money to pay for it. Oh, we can't get any money, let's heartlessly abort the child and blame the politicians. Her partner even considered a life of crime but decided not to. Let's give him a round of applause.

zsazsajuju · 06/05/2018 21:55

I’ve lived on benefits as a single parent and now luckily I don’t. It’s a struggle to work and manage everything but I do it. There’s nothing wrong with benefits and my attitude was that I have paid in so I shouldn’t be ashamed of taking what I am entitled to. But a lot of people have not paid in and are just taking.

Ultimately we all need to take responsibility for ourselves. Anyone can fall on hard times but the basic principle should be that everyone contributes unless unable to do so.

It’s pie in the sky thinking that we would suddenly all be living it up on universal credit if “google paid their taxes”. We are still in deficit after many years of austerity and schools and hospitals are on their last legs. It’s not so easy to bring in tax income- people are just looking for easy answers to avoid difficult choices. We are still not even paying for the public spending we make never mind increasing it.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable for those on benefits to make the same Choices as those who are not re. Family size. I think there’s lots wrong with uc but not that.

greystripedteepee · 06/05/2018 21:55

And we should be glad we don't live in a country like China where you were fined for having more than one child!

Sarahrellyboo1987 · 06/05/2018 23:03

I read the news article and the woman got pregnant thinking the state would pay for it. She could have afforded the child had she got a job or just cut down.
It was her choice. Nothing to do with benefits

HelenaDove · 06/05/2018 23:07

"and hospitals are on their last legs"

which i suspect will be the excuse for using workfare.

LVXiii · 06/05/2018 23:38

I struggle to see how it's sad that someone would have an abortion because they can't afford a child. I've had 2 abortions, it wasn't traumatic.

Well, bully for you. I had an abortion rather than have a child in an abusive relationship and it was awful. I didn't want to have an abortion, I felt completely trapped by circumstance because I knew my ex (by that point) would be a train wreck of a father, I had no family support, I couldn't support myself so I did the alleged 'right' thing and had an abortion.

I finished my degree, got a good job, blah blah blah. I also spent years suffering from intense regret, nightmares, overwhelming guilt and loss. The end of a pregnancy that you don't want to end is really fucking horrible. It's 20 years later now and I still feel sad thinking about it and wonder what that baby would have been like, what kind of person he or she could have been. Not everyone feels like pregnancy is something you can end casually.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 07/05/2018 00:02

minifingerz, your posts have really made me think; we're really doing this arse-backwards and we'll keep getting the same result that nobody actually wants. It's madness.

Gilead · 07/05/2018 01:12

by the way, it's cost 8.5 billion to implement UC. Significantly more than it's saving. Oh, and talking of savings, some £3bn of the savings is not coming from the cap, but from removing things like the Severe Disability Premium, the enhanced Disability Premium and most recently, The Disability Income Guarantee.
I will be moving next this year. Should I move to an area with UC I will be losing around £175 per month. That's a significant amount, most of the monthly cost of my incontinence aids, in fact.

Teacher22 · 07/05/2018 07:40

People who earn money to live and pay taxes budget and plan to do everything they wish to pursue. This includes having children who are a massive financial commitment.

My DH and I had two reasonably well paid jobs, bought a house and worked for ten years before we even considered we had enough to give children a good start in life.

My mother was married to a very difficult man and had to leave him and support my sister and myself on her own. It was hard and the household never had much money, nevertheless, work she did and, proudly rejected all state help. We would not have free school meals as we did not want to be seen with the free tickets. It was seen as something of a disgrace in those days to take charity so we survived on short commons but with our dignity intact. The difference between today and then is that we now accept that people cannot be blamed for their misfortunes.

However, the problem seems to arise that there are those who use the social and welfare budget as a temporary stopgap to help them back on their feet when misfortune strikes and some people who plan a life of entitlement on its largesse at the expense of hard pressed taxpayers who are tightening their belts to provide, sometimes better, benefits, than their efforts provide for themselves.

Thus you have the strange statistic of today where very rich and very poor families have an average of four children at an early age when workers can barely afford the one/two they have and have to wait years later to have them in order to pay for them. Also, as we found when my daughter worked in central London, taxpayers with paying employment have to move out to the suburbs and pay huge travel costs to be able to afford to buy a small property and then spend their lives commuting past subsidised central city housing where the people they are supporting pay nothing to live there.

The recipients, as can be seen from this thread, are not quietly grateful ( as they would have to feel somewhat ashamed of themselves) but shrilly entitled. They stridently demand their ‘rights’ while ignoring the fact that the hard pressed workers who are providing their homes, children, cash and benefits cannot afford what hthey have without working or, in the case of UC, working so hard.

And before anyone protests that this is not the case, while I worked full time through having children, my own sister ‘ worked the system’ by dropping her hours to less than sixteen and claimed UC for years. She too, is full of the ‘ we are a rich country, big business can afford to pay’ ideology as she knows nothing of finance and how things actually work.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to limit benefits to two children, yes, some individual cases of unintentional consequences will happen and cause some difficulties for some benefit recipients. But unexpected events are the nature of life itself and it cannot be right that some are protected from them while others, who work hard, have to abide by the exigencies of fate.

An additional point is to highlight the irony of benefit recipients gaining assistance with life and then having the extra grievance of UC benefitting business owners and housing benefit going to landlords. Of course it does! How else would it work if you want to be housed, paid for and live at others’ expense? Were it otherwise it would be tantamount to wanting to live free but also have the pleasure of seeing others punished?

The UK benefits bill is now half of all tax spending and, frighteningly, is not covered by income tax receipts. Other countries manage to have high taxation and high spending by also having small populations. The Nordic countries average about five million in a country. We, however, are nearer 60million and growing.

The financial implications of unchecked welfare benefits give one pause for thought but they are nothing in comparison to the observed effect on pride, self determination, resilience and responsibility.

Becomingmom · 07/05/2018 07:58

No universal credit for three kids, but I can get a grant for three children’s childcare because I’m a student. That’s wrong. I aborted with my ex, the father of my two kids, but I did so because he refused to allow me to have it and still start my degree. He argued I’d have to defer again and didn’t think I’d go through with an abortion, he was very controlling though and part of me didn’t want it because it was his. Failed morning after pill 🙈 won’t be taking it again.

Maldives2006 · 07/05/2018 08:06

I completely agree with you the demonisation of poor people has become ridiculous and encouraged by the conservative press.

The majority of the population are doing what they can to provide for their families.

I had to have a late term termination at 21 weeks it definitely does not include crushing the babies skull. I feel I must say this because there will be women reading this who have had to go through a late term abortion and don’t need to have this added to their already huge guilt.

SilverDoe · 07/05/2018 08:17

Teacher You've written a long wordy post but it is just once again filled with anecdotal experience (your sister) and clear preconceptions. I love the "resilience", such a torie throw around reserved for difficult topics like welfare (which is only difficult because they clearly have such an old fashioned, contemptuous attitude to people on a low income).

You have completely ignored what many posters who have actually looked into the the wider and longer term effects of poverty, and what has been shown to actually reduce childbirth rates. There are 20% of people in this country right now living in poverty and this is never addressed either. I find it reprehensible that people like you hold those views because they are based on complete ignorance to the fact that people really do not have all the same opportunities in life, and prospects and likely outcomes can be seen and predicted at a population level. So no, we should not just be ignoring it and hoping people magically become more "resilient", FFS Hmm

Can you source your figures for the 50% spend figure, and if you can, why it matters that is specifically from taxes? The overall spend on welfare according to the government for 16/17 was around 28% of overall spending, with by far the largest proportion of that being payouts for state pensions.

Other countries manage to have high taxation and high spending by also having small populations. The Nordic countries average about five million in a country. We, however, are nearer 60million and growing

But we just don't, have a population of 5 million, do we? We will never have anywhere near a population of 5 million, even if people did limit themselves to 1 or 2 children.

Smeaton · 07/05/2018 08:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

habobo · 07/05/2018 08:33

1 million more children in poverty than in 2010 - this morning's news

SilverDoe · 07/05/2018 08:34

Thank you Smeaton, a much better debullshitter for Teacher's post than mine :)

LifeBeginsAtGin · 07/05/2018 08:37

1 million more children in poverty than in 2010 - this morning's news

Well doesn't that tell us the cap is right then? If families are living in poverty the last thing they need is another mouth to feed.

Childrenofthesun · 07/05/2018 08:40

I admire your patience in having gone through all that Maldives. Hopefully some people reading the thread will learn something.

It always amazes me how these well-paid people who work so hard can't understand that there will be nobody in their wealthy enclaves to educate their children, care for them or their elderly relatives, look after their children, clean their houses, serve their coffee etc without some sort of in-work benefits and subsidised housing. Or are nursery workers expected to live 1.5 hours outside the city and commute in (by donkey, as their salaries wouldn't cover the train fare)?

Smeddum · 07/05/2018 08:41

Well doesn't that tell us the cap is right then? If families are living in poverty the last thing they need is another mouth to feed

I’m trying to work out if you actually believe that, or if you’re being deliberately obtuse.

There are 1 million MORE children in poverty since the Tories came in. Not 1 million total, 1 million more.

And people still defend this shit? I give up.

Childrenofthesun · 07/05/2018 08:42

Sorry, meant to say well done Smeaton

SilverDoe · 07/05/2018 08:42

LifeBeginsAtGin

What a disgusting, heartless thing to say Shock

Is that really all you can muster? Fuck me... It has nothing to do with the fucking 2 child cap it has to do with all the other cuts they have been making.

Smeddum · 07/05/2018 08:46

If you want to cut welfare spending, you have to ensure that before the safety net is removed that there are the means to create another one.

Better wages, lower rents, subsidised childcare/cheaper childcare, proper transport links, job security without zero hour contracts.

You cannot remove benefits without putting these things in place, or people will struggle. It’s all very well saying “well they need to work” but if there aren’t any jobs, they can’t afford the rent and wages are shit there’s nothing.

BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil · 07/05/2018 08:48

@Smeaton That. Just exactly what you said.

Maybe PP should move to one of the Nordic countries to avoid the commute past all that subsided housing.

Smeddum · 07/05/2018 08:53

And Smeaton has it absolutely spot on.

BoxsetsAndPopcorn · 07/05/2018 08:53

Habobo, the article also states that that is wrong and gives other stats but just cherry pick what suits Hmm

Still not the states fault, they didn't tell people they must have children. It was a choice they made by themselves. The only people that should be shamed by that figure is the parents who put the children into that situation.

Relative poverty is also very different to absolute poverty, given the way it's calculated there will always be people classed as being in it but easily afford the necessities in life.

The £23k tax free cap only applies to households with no working hours at all so if benefits were that awful then there would have been no need for there to have been an upper limit. Households doing the token 16 hours are exempt so there's can go over the £23k.

Teacher22, I agree re gratefulness. If a person needed welfare as no other option they would be humbled and grateful for the safety net in times of need. It used to be shameful to not provide for ones family. Now it's all about entitlement, more money, a host of reasons as to why they can't possibly be expected to work or do more hours, cap the number of children they have etc. Moaning about having to wait for UC to start, having to attend appointments, fill in documentation etc. Very few seem bothered now re not providing for chidren themselves and certainly have no shame in letting others do it.

zsazsajuju · 07/05/2018 08:56

Smeaton lots of people who work struggle too. Probably the majority. And 1.1% of 60million is a lot of people and a lot of money.

What this thread is about is the two child limit. Working people have the budget carefully if they want more kids. No reason why it should be different for people on benefits.

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