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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why am I not The Queen?

107 replies

DentistWimp · 29/04/2018 21:38

I am watching the Invitation to a Royal Wedding Angry. Why do I not have a police escort for my weekly flowers? I want a castle and factories to make my favourite cake Angry

It’s not fair. I want a lot of money and a privelaged lifestyle Angry

OP posts:
Mightymucks · 01/05/2018 12:05

No they don't.

Actually they do. Have a look at how the Crown Estate works. It is the personal property of the monarch yet there is currently a voluntary agreement that all profits from it go to the Treasury. Last year it gave £328.8 million to the treasury whilst the Royal Family cost £33.3 million. So their contribution is far in excess of their costs.

It’s one of the reasons it’s highly unlikely we will become a monarchy in the foreseeable future. We would be unlikely to be able to strip them of that without breaking all sorts of British, international and human rights laws, and the saving we would make not paying for them would be be irrelevant next to the huge loss of revenue from the Crown Estates.

The Royal Family would actually be a hell of a lot richer if the monarchy got ditched.

BitOutOfPractice · 01/05/2018 12:07

I enjoy having privacy with my family

The Queen has lots and lots of privacy, especially during her extended stays at Sandringham and Balmoral.

LaurieMarlow · 01/05/2018 12:17

It is the personal property of the monarch yet there is currently a voluntary agreement that all profits from it go to the Treasury. Last year it gave £328.8 million to the treasury whilst the Royal Family cost £33.3 million. So their contribution is far in excess of their costs.

This is bullshit. You need to do a bit more reading.

The Crown Estates belongs to the institution of 'the crown'. The Windsors have no personal rights to it at all. They can only benefit from it as long as they remain in the role of 'the Crown'.

From the official FAQs

The Crown Estate belongs to the reigning monarch 'in right of The Crown', that is, it is owned by the monarch for the duration of their reign, by virtue of their accession to the throne. But it is not the private property of the monarch - it cannot be sold by the monarch, nor do revenues from it belong to the monarch.

The Crown Estates were established to finance the running of the country (not the monarchy) which once fell to the institution of 'the crown', but since George III were surrendered to parliament (along with the responsibility of financing the country) in return for the civil lists to finance the monarchy.

If the Windsors were to abdicate, they would have no legal rights to them at all.

IMBU · 01/05/2018 12:30

All a load of fuss and fawning over people who are no better than any of us.

Queenoftheblitz · 01/05/2018 12:52

All a load of fuss and fawning over people who are no better than any of us.

Queenie is a far better person than me.
I reckon I'm on a par with Fergie who's very greedy.

Mightymucks · 01/05/2018 13:48

lauriemarlow, not true.

For one thing, George III didn’t surrender the Crown Estates, he surrendered control over them. The state does not and never has owned it and has no claim to it other than with the agreement of the current monarch.

There is currently no provision for what would happen if the Royal Family was abolished, it would not automatically be handed to the state:

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/do_the_royal_family_have_persona

However most of the Crown Estate was the personal property of the monarch before it was added to the Crown Estate, so if the Crown Estate ceases to exist the Royal Family have an extremely powerful argument that it should revert to it’s previous owner or their heir. Which will be whoever the monarch is. There is a lot of conflict with the rights of individuals to own private property and to have protection from being stripped of it by the state, which would stop the state from automatically stripping the RF of the CE without an awful lot of legal action which the state would stand a huge chance of losing.

DougFargo · 01/05/2018 13:52

All a load of fuss and fawning over people who are no better than any of us

They're far better than some, far worse than others.

Mightymucks · 01/05/2018 14:03

What you’re suggesting Laurie, is like suggesting if somebody dies without a will any house they own should go to the tenant because the tenant has had use of it.

Certainly wouldn’t happen unless the tenant was able to prove they had more legal right to it than anyone else who claimed ownership.

The Crown is not the state. Hasn’t been since Charles I so saying ‘The Crown’ owns something does not mean the state owns it. It means the person of the current monarch owns it. And if the monarchy ceases to exist there is a very strong claim that the protection of personal property from the state extends to them as a private individual as well as a monarch.

Mightymucks · 01/05/2018 14:07

And yes it does belong to ‘the monarch’. The person of the monarch is the crown. It might not legally belong to Elizabeth Windsor as an individual (at the moment) but as the monarch SHE IS THE CROWN!

That’s why she can’t appear in court too (which is the reason why Paul Burrell’s trial collapsed). You can’t have ‘the crown’ prosecute someone when ‘the crown’ is also a witness for the defence.

LaurieMarlow · 01/05/2018 14:10

There is currently no provision for what would happen if the Royal Family was abolished

This is true.

However, the crown estates belong to the institution of 'The Crown' and are emphatically not the personal property of the Windsors. On their abdication they would pass to what replaces 'The Crown'.

Again, from the official site.

The Crown Estate's property assets are owned by the Sovereign in right of the Crown, so the ownership passes with the Crown and is not the personal possession of the Monarch or any individual member of the Royal Family.

It is logical to assume that what would replace 'the crown' would be the state in some shape or form. It's true that this is not clear in the law, but not at all the case that therefore the Windsors would have a claim.

However most of the Crown Estate was the personal property of the monarch before it was added to the Crown Estate, so if the Crown Estate ceases to exist the Royal Family have an extremely powerful argument that it should revert to it’s previous owner or their heir.

No, this is not correct. The Crown Estates were never 'personal property' as we understand them. Their function was to fund the running of the state (defense/policing/parliament). In surrendering control of them, George III also surrendered the monarch's responsibility to fund these things. There is no argument at all that the royal family would have a claim to them. The official position is that they have entitlement to the revenues in the right of the crown, but not otherwise.

hdh747 · 01/05/2018 14:10

Blimey that bit of fun turned serious. Hmm

LaurieMarlow · 01/05/2018 14:13

'The Crown' is a legal entity.

If Elizabeth Mountbatten Windsor (or whatever she's called) were to abdicate, she'd be a private individual.

They are not the same thing.

LaurieMarlow · 01/05/2018 14:15

Sorry, it really gets my goat that the Crown Estates are so complicated in their ownership that people are able to believe they belong to the Windsors, thus arguing as mightymucks does that actually the royals are benevolently donating millions of pounds to the state.

MargoLovebutter · 01/05/2018 14:18

I'd hate to be HM. What a massive drag:

Hardly any real friends,
no privacy because even at Sandringham & Balmoral you have a household of people around you.

A constant stream of things to go to and people to be terribly interested in.

Having to have a weekly chat with the Prime Minister - that alone would be enough to finish me off!

Wearing all that tweed would get me down too
Not to mention having to take my summer holiday in Scotland, when actually I want to go to Tenerife and lie on a lounger for two weeks, not trek through gorse filled, rainy, midgey desolation because its the only place I can be alone!

diddl · 01/05/2018 14:42

"Those stupid dogs would have to go."

I think they have!

TheClitterati · 01/05/2018 14:59

Actually they do. Have a look at how the Crown Estate works. It is the personal property of the monarch yet there is currently a voluntary agreement that all profits from it go to the Treasury. Last year it gave £328.8 million to the treasury whilst the Royal Family cost £33.3 million. So their contribution is far in excess of their costs.

And where did the Crown Estate/personal property of the Monarch come from? She didn't save up and buy it you know!

MargoLovebutter · 01/05/2018 15:08

It is not a voluntary agreement that the net profit from the Crown Estate goes to the Government, it is following a number of Acts of Parliament, the most recent being in 2011.

MargoLovebutter · 01/05/2018 15:11

Also the ownership isn't complicated at all. The property belongs to The Crown, so whoever is the monarch of the day. The responsibility for running it is devolved to The Crown Estate Board and the net profits go to the Government. It is that straightforward!

morningconstitutional2017 · 01/05/2018 16:08

Life just isn't fair, is it? I wouldn't want to be scrutinised every time I left the palace if I was wearing the wrong clothes, hair in a mess, etc. and having to host state dinners can't really be much fun.

OTOH the clothes and the jewels.

I'd rather be rich and anonymous.

Mightymucks · 01/05/2018 18:21

It is not a voluntary agreement that the net profit from the Crown Estate goes to the Government, it is following a number of Acts of Parliament, the most recent being in 2011.

It IS a voluntary agreement. It might be ‘voluntary’ in the sense that the Queen ‘voluntarily’ asks the leader of the party who wins an election to form a government but it’s still voluntary because it’s something each individual monarch agrees to when they ascend the throne. Technically the Queen has the right to command the armed forces but she ‘voluntarily’ doesn’t do that either. Legislation refers to how it’s run and how the army is run, but that doesn’t mean the legislation compels the Crown to do something (because for a start it wouldn’t normally be legally enforceable because you can’t take legal action against the Crown).

Also the ownership isn't complicated at all. The property belongs to The Crown, so whoever is the monarch of the day. The responsibility for running it is devolved to The Crown Estate Board and the net profits go to the Government. It is that straightforward!

It’s that straightforward at the moment because we have a monarchy. If the monarchy is abolished it’s not straightforward at all. IT CAN’T BELONG TO THE CROWN IF IT DOESN’T EXIST!

There is an awful lot of anachronistic legislation surrounding the Crown and the Royal Family which is still on the statute books despite technically actually being illegal, particularly because of the Human Rights Act.

A particular example of this is the Royal Marriages Act. It barred members of the Royal Family from marrying in register offices. But that was actually illegal under the human rights act as was confirmed to allow Charles and Camilla to marry in one.

We still have laws in place which are illegal under the human rights act and we know are illegal under the human rights act but we still keep them. Like the first six people in line to the throne needing the Queens permission. Completely illegal. We know it’s illegal. Yet it’s still one of our laws despite us being completely aware it’s a totally illegal law.

The same applies to the Crown Estates and laws in the Human Rights Act about rights to property and protection of property from government interference. If the monarchy is abolished and the Crown ceases to exist there is no automatic right for the state to expect it to be passed to them. In fact, the ex-monarch would have a very powerful argument that as the Crown had ceased to exist ownership of the Crown Estates belonged to them under human rights legislation because the state wouldn’t have the right to separate ‘the Crown’ from the individual because the human rights act doesn’t accept that the institution of the Crown creates legal exceptions to human rights.

We just don’t know what would happen and the human rights act gives the Royal Family a very strong position from which to argue for personal ownership.

blackteasplease · 01/05/2018 18:46

As i used tto i tell dd when she was smaller, you can ve the Queen. All you have to do is get everyone in the country/ world to recognise you as queen and you will be it!

Topseyt · 01/05/2018 18:53

I'd love to try that chocolate biscuit cake. That looked better than any wedding cake I have ever come across.

DentistWimp · 01/05/2018 20:23

If I was The Queen I’d ban all conversations about the Crown 👑 Estate!!!

I have a very good Resting Bitch Face but somehow it doesn’t have the same effect as it does The Queen because people think I’m a cantankerous old bitch rather than a saintly ninety something year old.

Does she still have all her own teeth?

OP posts:
HairyToity · 01/05/2018 20:39

I think they can do things on a whim. When William was doing his RAF training he rented a fancy barn conversion near my parents. He was often seen at the local pub. This was about 9-10 years ago so it might have got worse with smartphones. Everyone was too polite to bother him.

geekymommy · 01/05/2018 21:14

Trying to get everyone to recognize you as the Queen can be dangerous, though. Ask Jane Grey. Marrying a King isn't always safer- ask Anne Boleyn or Katherine Howard.

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