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Original poster

To Think That If Hiliary Clinton Had Been President.....

96 replies

A4710Rider · 27/04/2018 11:07

......we now wouldn't be looking at all out peace on the Korean Peninsula.

Very well done, Mr Trump, very well done indeed.

OP posts:
PerfectlyDone · 27/04/2018 12:16

Oh crap, yes! Grin

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 27/04/2018 12:17

I have to agree China's involvement is probably greater thsn acknowledged.

Losing patience with propping up NK's economy whilst having to cope with it's own economic downturn and publically intervening in the nuclear discussion which China has helped to bankroll, China has probably provided greater practical help to get to this stage then Donald Trump.

NightRaven52 · 27/04/2018 12:17

I agree. I'm from the States and voted for Trump, not because I agreed with anything he said or stands for but purely on the basis that I think Hilary Clinton would have been a blood thirsty warmonger. Neither are great and it's awful that they were the two choices, but I do strongly believe that Trump was the lesser of the two evils.

Original poster
A4710Rider · 27/04/2018 12:18

Right, so it's just pure coincidence that after almost 70 years of stalemate and Trump having to deal with Kim's nuclear testing that we're now on the road to peace?

Just a coincidence, right?

Wow, have you heard of double think?

OP posts:
LaurieMarlow · 27/04/2018 12:19

Interesting article in the Guardian (of all places) that argues Trump's actions played an important role, while also acknowledging input from lots of other sources (including Obama in paving the way).

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/27/summit-north-south-korea-peace-kim-jong-un

DairyisClosed · 27/04/2018 12:19

While we must credit trump with making more of an effort on this matter than his predessor on this front I don't see how we can credit him with the sudden change in regional politics. Not everything us about the actions of almighty Western countries you know. A true analysis of the situation would be a change in politics steaming from internal changes of magnitude and differing approaches from neighbouring nations.

This us a bit like crediting the commentator with a goal.

MyotherUsernameisaPun · 27/04/2018 12:19

@A4710Rider am I supposed to be offended that you think I'm studious...?

It's all very well for you to accuse me of being in a bubble and shouting lalala but it seems you're the one who is unwilling to actually make a reasoned case in support of your position.

Trump proposed a meeting with Kim Jong-Un in March and was immediately criticised by his own party for appearing to give North Korea an easy PR win in return for nothing. That meeting hasn't actually taken place yet.

In the meantime, Kim Jong-un undertook a visit to China in which their deteriorating relationship and China's enforcement of sanctions were no doubt under discussion. A third of North Korea's economy has been wiped out due to Chinese enforcement of sanctions. It's hard to overstate the effect that must have had on North Korea. Don't you think that is the likely reason North Korea is now open to discussions with the US?

I'd really be interested to hear your reasoning for thinking that Trump tweeting about a potential meeting (for which no details have yet been confirmed) is more instrumental than sanctions from china and talks between South Korea and North Korea which have been ongoing since well before Trump's proposed meeting.

DairyisClosed · 27/04/2018 12:20

You may also want to look up the definition of a causal link.

Original poster
A4710Rider · 27/04/2018 12:21

Trump doesn't take all the credit for peace on the peninsula, but he does deserve credit, only a wilfully obtuse person wouldn't agree.

OP posts:
PerfectlyDone · 27/04/2018 12:24

OMG, a complex situation required complex things to happen to arrive at an outcome! Hold the presses!

I take your point about Trump being a realist (although not sure that HC would have been a war monger? Hm. Maybe), but your sneering tone is really not helping you making a point.

NightRaven, it seems many have voted for Trump like you did in order to Not Vote for HC. It's a pity that so many felt they only had a choice between 2 bad options.
I don't think that us in Europe can fully grasp quite how hated HC is in many circles. I am quite fascinated by that phenomenon tbh.

MyotherUsernameisaPun · 27/04/2018 12:24

@A4710Rider surely by that logic we could credit anything that's happened in the last two years with this victory? Like, for example, concerted diplomatic efforts and foreign policy initiatives by China and South Korea...?

If you want to believe it's Trump you have to have an explanation for why he has been successful when his actions have been no different from those of his predecessors. Ignoring what he has tweeted, look at what he has done - imposed sanctions and threatened military might if needed. That is the same foreign policy as Obama and Bush followed.

That's why you have to look at other factors which have caused a change. It is nonsensical to suggest that Trump tweeting about a meeting had more to do with this than China imposing sanctions which wipes out more than a third of NK's economy!

HesterShaw · 27/04/2018 12:25

Not everything us about the actions of almighty Western countries you know.

This.

A few years ago there was a series called "Wild China" narrated by Bernard Hill, which showed us the wonders of China's nature. It ended up by talking about the problems facing it, but its closing statement was that with its regime in a country of so big a proportion of the world's population, China was uniquely placed to do something about it. If they decide to do something they generally do it.

Original poster
A4710Rider · 27/04/2018 12:25

I wonder how many silly people will turn out to protest at Trump's visit to London in May?

I think I will join the "Welcome to the UK" gathering.

OP posts:
Rufustheconstantreindeer · 27/04/2018 12:25

So trump 'declared' that he would like to meet up with Kim (but hasn't done so) and has managed to bring peace

The Chinese had a meeting and haven't managed to bring peace

Is that right?

That seems weirdly easy

ArcheryAnnie · 27/04/2018 12:26

We won't have to worry about a war with North Korea soon, because we will be too busy worrying about the fall-our from Iran having nuclear weapons, which will happen in short order as soon as Trump finishes trashing the historic, and sorely needed, Iran Nuclear Deal.

So that's nice.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 27/04/2018 12:27

Oops sorry A bit of a crosspost there

PerfectlyDone · 27/04/2018 12:27

Not everything us about the actions of almighty Western countries you know.

Indeed.
Imagine all these countries following their own interests and making their own decisions!

I think I will join the "Welcome to the UK" gathering.

That's nice.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 27/04/2018 12:28

I don't think that us in Europe can fully grasp quite how hated HC is in many circles. I am quite fascinated by that phenomenon tbh.

Yes

It is fascinating

ArcheryAnnie · 27/04/2018 12:29

@A4710Rider quite apart from his political nuance, or lack of it, are you seriously planning to hold a welcome banner for a man, who by his own admission, thinks his own sexual assaults on women are no big deal?

ghostyslovesheets · 27/04/2018 12:32

Wow so China or even North/South Korea deserve no credit at all - the big orange shouty man did it all via Twitter- amazing!

AmericanEskimoDoge · 27/04/2018 12:32

There's no knowing what will happen with NK, going forward, but one thing is certain: many of the same people who can't bring themselves to say one positive thing about Trump would've been falling over themselves to congratulate Obama for his diplomatic genius, had the same things happened while he was still in office.

I mean, Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize because some of his international worshipers supporters thought it might "inspire" him to do great things. There's no question how those same people would've reacted to these types of developments, under Obama's watch.

It wasn't long ago that we were hearing how Trump's "rocket man" comments were about to push us over the brink into nuclear war! Life is strange...

MyotherUsernameisaPun · 27/04/2018 12:33

@ArcheryAnnie I wonder this also. Along with many other delightful actions such as refusing to let black people rent his properties, abandoning any attempts to resolve the climate crisis, derogatory remarks about Mexicans, boasting about his well-built tower following a fire which killed a resident, literally anything going on with Iran (to name but a few...)

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 27/04/2018 12:37

ould've been falling over themselves to congratulate Obama for his diplomatic genius, had the same things happened while he was still in office.

I can assure you that if all obama had done was tweet that it would be nice to meet up that I wouldn't be congratulating him for his diplomatic genius

There must be more to it than the tweet surely...that can't just be it

PerfectlyDone · 27/04/2018 12:39

many of the same people who can't bring themselves to say one positive thing about Trump would've been falling over themselves to congratulate Obama for his diplomatic genius, had the same things happened while he was still in office.

I dunno, if he had done as little as Trump? Tweet?
Don't think so.

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