AIBU to ask if the English are judgemental against people speaking improper English?

[ConfusedWife1234]

Hey,
I am not a native speaker and I always wondered how English people think about people who make grammatical or other errors when speaking/writing their language. So far most did not say a thing but what are they thinking?

It seems highly unlikely that you do, with your bizarre approach to language.

Slieve I am speaking from years of study, qualifications and experience. If you want to start on someone and call them a liar, start on someone that has agreed with me, maybe the person who explained it better.

Or are you just enjoying putting the boot in because others have?

If I hear a non native English speaker speak any level of English I think they are doing great. I don't care about any grammatical mistakes. I would only correct them if they'd specifically asked me to.

Or are you just enjoying putting the boot in because others have?

No, I simply don't believe that anyone with the qualifications and experience you claim to have would make such silly comments about how anything a native speaker says is correct just because they said it.
It's an idiotic point from anyone, but a qualified teacher of ESL? Nah. Nice try.

oh dont be more stupid than you have to be.
Do you really think that if I was going to invent a whole fantasy career i would choose ESL?
LOL get real.
No, i would be an astronaut or a jumbo jet pilot....:):)

No, I think you said something really stupid and then tried to appeal to your invented authority to back it up, so it had to be a suitable career claim.

Anyway, it might all be true, but that just makes your initial even more bizarre. One worries for the language skills of your non existent students if you actually think there are no rules and whatever any english person happens to say is correct English!

Love, it's not 'stupid' it's lesson #1 on any ELT diploma or masters course.
Stop callling me a liar and i wont call you an idiot OK?

it's really not the best job ever. I mean, it is hardly my fantasy career. A succession of short contracts. dodgy managers, and finally strangers on the internet calling you a liar.
No, definitely not something i would fantasise about, trust me.

I find it's only if they know the other person is English. Everyone I know would just either smile or helpfully correct (If you know they will continue saying the wrong thing), if they think English is not the person's first language. But born and raised here, they'd correct each and every time.

I think it is more accurate to refer to "standard" English than to "correct" English. And those standards constantly evolve. This is true but you'll get arguments here from people who think they speak God's Own English.

Ex English teacher here! I have no issue with it whatsoever. For one, fluency in English is dependant on many things: place of birth, other languages spoken, additional needs. Secondly, colloquial spoken/written English only needs to be understood by those that you're communicating with - the content is more important than the syntax. And lastly, I generally find that people who insist on 'proper' English being used tend to be a bit thick. Language is a fluid, ever evolving thing, there is no correct way to use it.

Not read the entire thread. However,

I’m NES
Fiancé is NNES

We live in Thailand.

NES do have a tendency to criticise Incorrect grammar ( often with mistakes themselves).

I’ve seen this happen between British and American speakers too.

I actually don’t mind and I think NNES have a much firmer grasp of grammar than NES. I have often talked with NNES to help explain a grammar point to my students.

With spoken English there’s often pronounciation mistakes, pronouns and awkward structure. 95% of the time it’s ok. Alas sometimes it’s caused an argument with my fiancé because we both got the wrong idea lol.

Anyone judging another persons grammar should go learn a second language and have some understanding

Also even NES speak incorrectly at times so we have no reason to judge.

I dislike the rudeness I’ve seen towards NNES and have lost friends due to ignorant opinions.

No, definitely not something i would fantasise about, trust me

missed the point entirely then?

Love, it's not 'stupid' it's lesson #1 on any ELT diploma or masters course

It's not. Nothing that stupid is included in the course.

Anyone, everyone in fact, know that what you said is utter bollocks. Native and non native speakers like know that you could not be more wrong.

Slieve are you this unpleasant in real life?

Yes it's lesson one on any diploma or degree course in ELT. Now, how do you think i know that?

Other ELT professionals on this thread have agreed with me.
Now off you pop and go and do something more useful than accusing strangers on the internet of inventing their careers and qualifications.

This ELT course seems to have a £40 online "grammar for English teachers" option.

Perhaps that's why it's so cheap - it simply says, "ah, don't bother them with grammar, just tell them they're all correct because you're a native so you must be right" ?!

www.elt-training.com/?msg=not-logged-in

i don't know Saucy, I haven't done any online courses; they are not really rated very well tbh.
I mean, it wouldn't be enough to get a job with.
Those online courses are not 'the ELT course', as in certified by RSA/Cambridge or Trinity College. Those are the only ones that will get you a job.

Variations in the way we speak may well have become the accepted norm around the UK and become part of the English language as a result. There are some "mistakes" that if made in a job interview would mean you wouldn't get that job.

This might be more to do with class prejudice than language but I'd teach my children to speak so as to succeed in a professional environment rather than to emulate their neighbours or friends. If this makes me a snob then so be it.

I think I do judge native English speakers when they make certain "mistakes". It's not right that I do that but I'm being honest.

@Findingmyfeet I curious which mistakes that would be. The ones that cost you your job I mean.

@those who explained the me and dh vs. dh and I difference. Thanks a lot. It is easy to remember like that and makes a lot of sense.

When I was interviewed for my job, I wouldn't have been successful if I'd said "I done" instead of "I did" for example. I'd heard many people in my home city speaking that way.

@fourfried you know you're right and if anyone bothered to investigate for themselves or read what I wrote earlier on the thread they would at least begin to see that too. It's often very difficult to get people to question assumptions that they've been taught since school and clearly there are some posters on this thread who fall into that category.

It's a difficult one because whilst we know what linguistics 101 says about it, we also know that standard varieties DO hold a prestige and that people do make judgements about what they perceive to be mistakes, whether or not they stem from what you or I would consider the utterance to be part of a non standard variety.

@confusedwife1234 in answer to your question about mistakes that would cost you the job it would depend on the speakers. Say they were both from a part of the country where certain ways of saying things differ from the standard probably neither would notice the 'mistakes' made by the other. If there were bigger differences between them, the one with the more prestigious variety would be likely to judge some things the other one said more harshly. However, you could look at this another way and say it's really a class based judgement. Written English is another story. Mistakes with there / their / they're, misuse of apostrophes, might / must / could / should OF instead of have are all common NS mistakes that would jump out from a CV or similar.

It's absolutely a class issue Pimpernell and in certain companies and professions that makes a big difference.

It shouldn't but it does.

I’ve lived in a country where I had to speak my second language all the time and, my god, it’s exhausting. Anyone doing that in the uk has my sympathy and admiration.

This sounds mean, but I’ve found that in England, (I grew up in Ireland) the level of written English is often surprisingly bad among native adults. Don’t know how it is among children. My English dh is extremely clever, (first class integrated masters degree from a top university), but his written English is really quite poor* sometimes. He blames his schools.

*Not that mine’s perfect obviously, before anyone corrects something in my post !

@findingmyfeet absolutely. One mark of a skilled speaker of a language is the ability to modify the way you speak (grammar, vocabulary, accent) to suit the circumstances. Most people would, if they think about it, agree that they speak differently with their grandmother / oldest friends / potential employer. Speakers of 2+ languages are especially skilled at this as they have more choices to make. It is much more productive to encourage awareness of these issues and development of that skill of adjusting your language than to make sweeping judgments based on nothing more than one's own unchallenged assumptions about things being 'correct' or not.

I certainly believe FourFried is for real. For one thing, she (assuming poster is a she) uses the subjunctive correctly.

I've been in England for 20+ years and originally French speaker. I have found that English speaking folks are a lot more critical of each other's regional accents that foreign accents. Is it scones or scones? Bath or bath? Garage or garage?

And 'regional' accents can reveal if you are from upper, middle or working class background. I live in the East End of London and the local accent has a bad reputation, it's slowly going extinct as people are embarrassed about it. People in my old job used to really look down at Liverpudlian accent, for example.

I think generally, people are forgiving of my little French accent and mispronunciations.