Syria, Russia and the U.S

[DNAnotGRA]

AIBU to be very concerned about the latest events regarding Syria. It would seem the U.S is hell bent on a hot war in the region, the potential ripple effect would be catastrophic. Trumps tweet reads:

"Russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at Syria. Get ready Russia, because they will be coming, nice and new and “smart!” You shouldn’t be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!"

twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/984022625440747520

Are you seriously suggesting that we declare war overnight heyduggees? Even with Iraq, no one did that.

You know, there are plenty of people who believe that Northern Ireland should be part of an all Ireland state and not part of the UK at all. It's a contention that has been going strong since Britain partitioned Ireland back in the early 1920s. Speaking of invading neighbours...

So where is Tony Blair I thought he was the middle east envoy

Wrong - don’t be ridiculous of course I’m not. But what we can do is play Russia at its own game.

Math - yes but what about... we aren’t talking about Ireland we are talking about a sordid evil war in Syria which is on a completely different scale.

The bottom line is if the USA retreat into splendid isolation (as many of you imply you want) then Russia will be completely free to bully and intimidate its neighbours.

DD's boyfriend is Cypriot and is studying here. If this kicks off and they stop flights there, I expect I shall be accommodating him and his friends for the summer...🙄

In 2013, Parliament rejected British involvement in Syria.

I agree with Corbyn , and think this should be put to Parliament.

OPCW statement on Skripal poisoning due midday. Cabinet meeting this afternoon.

The bottom line is if the USA retreat into splendid isolation (as many of you imply you want) then Russia will be completely free to bully and intimidate its neighbours

Oh yes! we can all see what happens when America interferes, in recent decades, starting with Vietnam, Central America, its support for various despotic regimes in the Middle east, followed by invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, Europe joining in by de-stabilisng Libya, throwing that place in a haven for terrorists and criminals, directly causing Europe's Mediterranean refugee crisis, in 2016 over 5000 drowned (another 3000 in 2017) many times more than have died in chemical attacks in Syria.
and you want to add Syria to the Wests military "Triumphs"

The shells containing the gas came from the air. Only Assad and Russia have airpower in the area. Bombing raids are tracked by satellite. Both airforces were raiding the area forcing civilians to take shelter in the basements of their buildings. Two helicopters were seen flying low before the shells were dropped.

The Russians blocked the UN resolution calling for an investigation.

To counter these facts, the best that Putin/Assad apologists can come up with is 'Why would they? No motive'. Just as they did with the Skripals. Followed on by denial that the attack took place, because all they've seen is pictures in the press of men with hoses and children with oxygen masks.

Don't they realise that there are piles of graphic photos on the picture desks of media outlets that are too gruesome to print? Susie Boniface from the Mirror described these photos on Sky's press preview.

If NATO were doing this, Stop the War would be all over it. Marches and demonstrations. It's been going on for 7 years. 1,000 died in the last gas attack. But not a peep from the usual suspects. The wrong sort of war?

I don't know what should be done - apart from the fact that it's time Congress got its act together and the men in white coats came and took Trump away. Whatever we do, it's too little, too late. Obama shouldn't have let them cross his red line 5 years ago. Some MPs are already regretting the way they voted.

International law on the use of poisonous gas in warfare is too precious to be ignored with a shrug. 'Because of Iraq'. On this, I agree with Blair. 'Doing nothing has consequences.'

I don't think the US will retreat into splendid isolation, and I don't think Russia is in the business of bullying and intimidating neighbours for any reason or just for the heck of it. I get the impression that many here derive their views on Russia from James Bond movies and other popular entertainment, with a heavy emphasis on plots featuring goodies and baddies.

Russia's stance is fundamentally defensive and always has been. Involvement in Syria is due to its naval base on the Mediterranean coast, which it is keeping out of the hands of both the US and ISIS. It also has historic links with Assad the elder from the latter stages of the Cold War (hence the naval base). Another reason for involvement is to stop ISIS from spreading into Turkey.

Its involvement with Syria also derives from refusal to allow the US to go about engaging in 'regime change' willy nilly in the middle east (and also in Ukraine - see tapes of State Department official Victoria Nuland on that topic). Russia references 'duly elected governments/presidents' or 'lawful governments' frequently in statements on the middle east, with the implication that seeking to overthrow governments and regimes is not on. Russia heavily criticised the US for abandoning Mubarak of Egypt (a former Staunch US ally) to his fate, for creating a vacuum in Libya, and for cheering on the Arab spring and then leaving fundamentalists to fill the gap left by former governments (Egypt being a prime example). We are all very lucky that the Egyptian Army stepped in and gave the Muslim Brotherhood got the bum's rush out of Cairo.

Similarly in Syria, Russia got involved when it was clear that all the US wanted to do was arm and give a little training to rebels who could only hope to destabilise Syria enough to allow ISIS to gain a stronghold, which they did. Assad is not a civilised leader. But at one point he was all Syria had between it and ISIS.

(We seem to have forgotten that ISIS are the people who have massacred and raped thousands of people, destroyed ancient sites, and caused untold horror and suffering).

Math - yes but what about... we aren’t talking about Ireland we are talking about a sordid evil war in Syria which is on a completely different scale.

I thought scale didn't matter?

The truth is, we get all het up about things that are happening far away, things we don't really understand, things we really have no clear insight into, because they allow us to indulge our sense of outrage. We can cut right through the murk and make grand pronouncements.

The closer to home the more detail there is, and the less clarity we find.

If it's true Russia want the world to turn a blind eye to chemical attacks on children, should the football World Cup go ahead there this summer?

Hopefully it's all a bit of dick waving rhetoric going on and that at high level behind scenes there are talks already taking place between Nato and Russia.

Math
Putin is in the same position as Trump. Appealing to his base. Making Russia great again, after the collapse of the USSR, aka the Russian empire. Domestically, as far as the economy goes, he is weak and morale is low. Hence, Crimea and Ukraine and the sabre rattling over the Baltic States.

He has filled the vacuum left by the West in the ME and there will soon be Iranian bases in Syria. I'm willing to bet you wouldn't describe Israel's actions in extending their territory as 'defensive', tho' there is far more reason to do so.

He has filled the vacuum left by the West in the ME and there will soon be Iranian bases in Syria

There is no vacuum in the ME, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Jordan, all US allies and all countries the US/West are heavily involved in, militarily and economically.

Russia is involved in Syria alone and only to keep its Naval base secure and to stop Islamist terrorism spreading into Russia's near neighbours.

Not sure why we are only seeing video images of children who have been gassed but can be washed off with water..... a new Russian weapon that kills only children?

I've seen film of adults as well as children. Any gas kills children and the elderly more than adults, for obvious reasons. And in a gas attack, the first course of action is to hose down the victims. There is likely to be little else they can do with limited medical facilities. As one of the medics said, 'Most of these casualties will die.'

Russia also supports Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Until the Syrian civil war, its presence was low-key, and both super-powers operated at arm's length. When the West held back from Syria, the balance of power shifted, Putin saw his opportunity and Russia is now the key player and has far more influence in the region than before.

Can find nothing that suggests Russia supports Hezbollah, China supports Iran, so we ll bomb them too, for their threats and war like actions in the Pacific and Tibet.....
Russia asked for the Wests support in defeating the rebels, we refused, the opposition in Assad isnt the libdems, they are people who would throw gays of buildings, kill christians and turn syria from a secular state to a hard line Islamic one, where the minority Alawite's would be exterminated, we would swap one awful dictator for an even worse one.

The west did not hold back from the war in Syria, exact opposite! we armed the rebels (directly and indirectly) causing the extension of the civil war, we (the west) have also been involved in 1000s of bombing missions in Syria..... apparently, according to the Allies, without a single civilian casualty...oh really?

We should have been pouring far more money into the local refugee camps, setting up schools and hospitals and funding them fully, instead we halted aid precipitated the flood of refugees into Europe.

Jasjas - we can agree on this much, all the vote in parliament not to support air strikes in Syria did is push Syria underground as a conflict. I bet special forces from all sorts of nations are tripping over each other out there. If anything it’s astonishing that Russian and us ground forces have not already squared off or shot each other’s jets down.

I don’t think Russia is inherently evil, but I do think they are acting in their national interest and unfortunately their national interest runs counter to ours.

I note lots of Russian apologists in this thread have issue with western intervention but don’t seem as keen to condemn Russian expansionism in Ukraine, Crimea and Syria.

Has everyone forgotten the despicable and false testimony of Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ regarding the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait? If you don't know about this, I suggest you do a quick google search. Atrocity propaganda is a very real, and very dangerous thing.

Thymeout, he doesn't need a base. He has no effective opposition. The only thing he has to deal with is hawks within the Kremlin itself.

It is a huge problem to assume that Russia's interest in the ME is counter to the west's. Just because a state has influence in a region or with certain players in a region does not mean it is necessarily an enemy. Russia is every bit as opposed to Islamic fundamentalism as the west is, and it is very important to remember that.

Russian involvement in Crimea and Ukraine is not necessarily expansionism, unless you want to call Northern Ireland an example of British expansionism. Crimea was Russian until Nikita Khruschev gave it away to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954. The eastern regions of Ukraine are ethnically and linguistically Russian and there is a long history, especially seen during WW2, of allegiance to Imperial Russia and then to the USSR (as opposed to the pro Nazi nationalist and separatist west of Ukraine). Closer to home, the north eastern region of Ireland is ethnically Scots, with a long history of allegiance to Britain. It might be instructive to see the parallel there.

And there is no Russian expansionism in Syria.

Russia's involvement there is defensive, and recognises the fact that bad and all as Assad is, he is not as bad as ISIS, whose regime of terror surpasses virtually any other you can name.

The majority of western countries have been stoking war in the region long before Trump. The only country to stay out was China and India but even China has sent some 'aid' to Assad a few months ago.

Hosing down the victims with water doesn't necessarily mean there is little else that can be done for them, though tragically many will not survive. Sometimes the hosing down occurs outdoors, in the cold, etc., but that in itself does not mean facilities are not available. The victims can't be moved until decontaminated without risking the health of the medical personnel. Turkey has provided training and equipment to Syrian medics in the recent past for dealing with gas attacks.

Math anxiety

Even by mumsnet standards your revisionism, convoluted apologising for Russia and clear wilful to refusal to see any wrong in recent Russian policy is breathtaking.

You are either a Russian bot or are just one of those placard waving types we see on the tv occasionally. You explain away Ukraine and Crimea with astonishing levity and your constant reference to Northern Ireland is misguided and crass.

Assuming you are resident in Britain I do wonder why you don’t go and join your beloved Russia if you feel so strongly. Your sympathies clearly lay in that direction.

Crimea was a referendum, which the population (>60% of which were ethnic Russians, as Crimea used to be a part of Russia until 1954) overwhelmingly voted yes in as they had the choice to either stay in a warring country swiftly heading for chaos, or be part of Russia. Also the Ukraine war was largely provoked by the US - google Victoria Nuland's involvement there, saying "we have invested 5 billion $ into securing Ukraine's democratic future" (read: install regime change) and handing out literal biscuits to protesters.

Oh and the whole "Russian troll" brush-off is so tiresome, all it does is stop any actual debate/discussion and turn every thread into an echo-chamber. It's almost like people can't actually believe others have different opinions.....

But anyways. Little much that any of us can do about Syria...or anything really..