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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why 'family friendly' doesn't seem to include older people

103 replies

user1485342611 · 11/04/2018 13:38

Just thinking about a couple of threads recently that really seem to reflect the way society is going in relation to older people. Libraries need more 'families' using them so older people will just have to put up with noise and racket. A restaurant is 'family friendly' so if you don't want to have kids running around and screaming while you're eating 'go somewhere more expensive'. Churches want to be more welcoming towards children so that means that everyone else has to put up with their experience being ruined and drowned out by young children.

There seems to be this attitude in some quarters that anyone who objects or makes any kind of request for a bit of consideration is some kind of tweed wearing 1930s school marm, glaring through her pince nez before going home to her cat.

AIBU to think that it's possible to welcome young people into places while also giving older people equal right to enjoyment of a facility?

OP posts:
HelenaDove · 11/04/2018 16:47

Nyman i found the same attitudes back when i was working.

People were allowed to run out of the shop where i worked when their manchildren husbands couldnt collapse a buggy but it was inferred my ill husband was a malingerer. He had a heart attack not long after this.

A colleuges 8 year old child was ill and she was believed.........no question.

NymanPerkins · 11/04/2018 16:55

Hmm. Sorry to hear that @HelenaDove. That’s exactly what I mean. Also, I am applying to university to do a masters, and have been offered bursaries and funding if I have children, but it doesn’t apply for adults.

Graphista · 11/04/2018 16:59

Yes! To cope and Helena

I have friends and family raising children in various places overseas, they're shocked at the behaviour allowed by some parents when they're back in U.K. Visiting family. They live in countries seen as more child friendly BUT children are expected to behave better because parents are expected to teach them to do so.

To the pp that seemed to think this was only possible with authoritarian methods - several of them are raising children in countries where smacking is completely banned and even raising your voice to your child is frowned on.

"YANBU. It’s also very annoying when you have your children with you and they’re behaving well and the brat brigade ruin their experience too and undermine the rules." Exactly - no fun for the well behaved children either.

Re blame/claim well I've a sister I wouldn't put past doing this! And her kids are let away with murder by her! I'm nc with her now but my mum has a lot of time with them and reins them right in - otherwise they'd be nightmares!

But I don't think it's true in most cases. In most cases I see its parents too busy focusing elsewhere (eg phones as a pp said) or parents who think the only way to discipline is authoritarianism and either rarely discipline then go way ott so mixed messages that confuse children, or show no control at all. The whiny "please don't do that Tarquin" type when their kid is beating crap out another!

I'd say there's a distinct lack of the use of the word "no" too. In my experience - of children of all ages inc teens - a commanding "no!" (Doesn't even need to be a shout just the right tone of voice) can be VERY effective.

Nyman while that's not what thread is about I agree. Carers for the elderly that are still working should get more consideration and support.

I also think it's bang out of order parents working in 24/7 industries getting preferential treatment for holidays. Especially Christmas/new year.

Mightymucks · 11/04/2018 17:01

parents of small children first pick of holidays, rota days, work from home etc., few are sympathetic when it comes to the myriad appointments and emergencies that follow from having adult dependents.

Yes, because if small children are left without supervision their parents lose custody and go to jail. If you can’t make an appointment with an adult you reschedule. BIG difference.

Graphista · 11/04/2018 17:07

You're assuming mucks that those adults are not vulnerable too. If they require carers they can be just as vulnerable as children.

It's up to the parents to ensure they have suitable childcare in place. And some parents really do take the piss on this score.

In the lead up to Christmas you'll see on here posts about parents working in certain industries but who EXPECT to ALWAYS get Christmas, new year OFF and colleagues without children to ALWAYS work Christmas and new year.

I also saw that attitude when nursing. Luckily I had bosses that wouldn't tolerate that and operated it on a Rota system while allowing those that WANTED to swap to do so (eg 20-something party girl swapping with mum of young DC so first worked Christmas but Off new year)

Prancingonthevalentine · 11/04/2018 17:15

Remember your angelic child may be tomorrow’s brat. Children have good and bad days (and good and bad ages).

chibsortig · 11/04/2018 17:43

Im not sure why people think libraries need to be quiet places for contemplation, what are we supposed to be contemplating? Surely its the perfect place to share books granted not whooping and screaming but if the young people dont use them soon there wont be a need for them, with the cuts they are facing many are already closing. And im sure outside the school holidays there is less noise and chatter in them. Our library isnt always busy but it does have a dedicated child area, plus the local council has an office, then theres the computer area and a whole lot of rooms off the main room where classes are taught it also has a nursery attached. Why shouldnt they be the hub of the community what better place used by all ages.
Restaurants are different because they can differ from being completely geared towards families with play areas to just family friendly meaning they can accommodate families ie they have a childrens menu. But there are an awful lot of places that arent family friendly nor oap friendly.

HelenaDove · 11/04/2018 17:46

YY Graphista You always see those threads start to appear on here around early November.

eggsandchips · 11/04/2018 17:47

I think having a child is a protected characteristic in the workplace which is why any sort of childcare reason is unlikely to be challenged.

AccidentallyRunToWindsor · 11/04/2018 17:55

Yes, because if small children are left without supervision their parents lose custody and go to jail. If you can’t make an appointment with an adult you reschedule. BIG difference.

Not always- my mother with dementia can't be left alone at all, not even in the home she has lived in for 40 years.

Graphista · 11/04/2018 18:14

I don't expect children to be angelic I do expect parents to step in when they're not being.

Chib - libraries are not community centres. I don't expect silence but neither do I think lots of noise is acceptable either. The thread I and the op referred to the council had by the sounds of things turned it into one step away from a nursery! And whooping and screaming was happening.

Child areas great, with children's books and even a few book related quiet to play toys. But it's one of the VERY few places those who can't afford a computer can go to access and use one and they generally need to be using it to access much needed advice, apply for benefits, update UC and job seeking journals (and they face hugely punitive sanctions if they don't do it right and the sites are a pain to use) apply for jobs, apply for education and training etc it's also one of the very few places I can think of that is fairly guaranteed to be a quiet, calm but public place. Several posters on the thread were annoyed at this happening to libraries as it further reduced where they could find such a place (where it's needed because some people really cannot for medical reasons cope with noisy places) either for themselves or for their children with Sen or elderly relatives who found noisy places stressful/intimidating. It was also pointed out its one of the few places for children in difficult situations at home to have a quiet place to study.

That's several groups being disadvantaged for the needs of ONE group who aren't in as much need. There are other places for young children to play and be noisy. A library is not an appropriate place for this.

Also you say outside school holidays iirc this was mainly babies and toddlers so there in school term time too.

It also depends on the layout. In this case it was all open plan so no noise control possible. Sounds like yours has separate rooms for different usage. That makes a huge difference to users.

I love libraries and took dd from she was tiny, but she was expected to behave appropriately and if she didn't I took her out so as not to disturb other users. That's just good manners. We were still able to enjoy and read and find books for her to enjoy and participate in organised events - quietly.

And the cuts are no excuse. Quiet community spaces for those that need them are just as important as ones where little kids can let off steam. Instead of just accepting "oh well...cuts" we should be fighting to keep the things that matter and support the WHOLE community.

Yes we were all children once - and we'll most of us (hopefully) get to be elderly too - that part seems to get forgotten.

Yes Helena I've seen threads where employees working far from family and friends are basically alone at Christmas and new year because they're having to work because a parent can't POSSIBLY be away from their child for even a few hours on Christmas Day Hmm

Eggsandchips (that's made me hungry Grin waiting on dd getting home)

Yes it is but I think it's high time carers were afforded reciprocal rights and support. If nothing else it would keep more of them in paid work which you'd THINK even tories could appreciate. But no.

The elderly and their carers are virtually ignored in uk. Several family members have been carers/in need of care. The amount of fight you need to get BASICS sorted is ridiculous - but that's another thread.

Prancingonthevalentine · 11/04/2018 20:13

Our library has games consoles consoles and children are encouraged to go there after school. There are nursery rhyme sessions for little ones. So there will be times of day when it definitely isn’t quiet, and times when it is.

eggsandchips · 11/04/2018 22:00

@Graphista Wink

And just wanted to say - excellent post. Completely agree.

Graphista · 11/04/2018 22:44

Thanks eggs Blush

Games consoles in a library?! Ffs awful idea.

Prancingonthevalentine · 11/04/2018 22:49

Young people go to library = engage with idea of libraries = pick up books = keep coming back. Not a bad idea. This is not a mc area lots of children never went in before.

Graphista · 11/04/2018 23:37

What's mc got to do with it?! I am wc and live in a very wc frankly deprived area - that would still be regarded as a ridiculous waste of resources and inappropriate use of a library.

Our library here is very popular and well used inc by children. Largely because many of them don't have quiet calm space at home.

Prancingonthevalentine · 11/04/2018 23:44

Well that’s great that you know better than the library service here what their users want and need and what will attract them to use the resource.

Graphista · 11/04/2018 23:50

I think if a library service is basically using blatant bribery there's something going very wrong yes.

Not just the library service to blame though.

Prancingonthevalentine · 11/04/2018 23:58

There are coffee machines and free books too! And audio books, DVDs - why is it bribery?

Gwenhwyfar · 12/04/2018 00:02

"Churches usually send children out for Sunday School 20 minutes into the service so even if there is some noise it’s of short duration. Evening services don’t usually have many children at them. "

The issue is babies who don't go to Sunday School. Not every place of worship has an evening service.
The 'tolerance' of noise is not really to do with being family friendly in my opinion though, just with a more individual-focused society and dwindling congregations. Nobody will say anything for fear of offending the parents.

twelly · 12/04/2018 00:08

It does seem that in attempt to be family friendly many places have become "loud" places - which actually does not make it family friendly at all.

gamerwidow · 13/04/2018 07:21

It does frustrate me when you see kids running amok in the library. Ours has foam squares for the children to sit on and kids are always chucking them at each other and rolling about on the floor. DD gets annoyed because I won't let her join in but there's a time a place for rough housing and it isn't in the library,
It's not the libraries fault they've tried to create space for children to enjoy the books but their parents won't teach them how to behave appropriately.

Coloursthatweremyjoy · 13/04/2018 07:58

I think what you are identifying is poor parenting really. Running round in restaurants isnt acceptable to me and i certainly dont consider myself 'older'.

I do think that this is also a product of times changing, the next generation coming up. I think our library is still pretty quiet not however as quiet as it was when I was growing up. You'd get shushed for sneezing and were basically terrified of turning a page too loudly. It's much more relaxed now. The reference reading room has gone though. I suppose it wasn't being used much, it was always empty as I remember. We weren't allowed to do more than look in there!

On the subject of church. I spent many years as an older teenager in church being viewed with suspision and impatience by the older generation. They couldn't understand why I might want to sing a song that was written in my lifetime or have an age appropriate group to dIscuss things relevant to my life. Thank God for families coming in, we still manage to have times of quiet contemplation but children dancing at the front to the music is also good. We've got a youth group, a toddler group and a group for older people at a good time for them where children don't attend. Years ago someone told me "if things don't change, one more generation and the church will literally die." I think a few baby squaks during the service is a reasonable price not to have had that happen.

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 13/04/2018 08:29

I actively avoid most places labelled as being family friendly for this reason. And I will never, ever, drink in a pub that has a playground outside

Amanduh · 13/04/2018 08:35

Well that isn’t what ‘family friendly’ places are anyway, it’s not a free for all.
I went for a meal last night at a ‘family friendly’ rrstaurant. Lots of children, none running around, all sitting with their families chatting and eating. A couple on ipads (shock horror) with headphones. There was a very loud woman disturbing everyone on her mobile telling everyone about her love life.
There was a man at the bar, drunk, very loud.
There was a couple shouting each other about the ‘bloody parking machine.’
Therefore I think we should ban single women, men, and couples Hmm