To wonder why 'family friendly' doesn't seem to include older people

[user1485342611]

Just thinking about a couple of threads recently that really seem to reflect the way society is going in relation to older people. Libraries need more 'families' using them so older people will just have to put up with noise and racket. A restaurant is 'family friendly' so if you don't want to have kids running around and screaming while you're eating 'go somewhere more expensive'. Churches want to be more welcoming towards children so that means that everyone else has to put up with their experience being ruined and drowned out by young children.

There seems to be this attitude in some quarters that anyone who objects or makes any kind of request for a bit of consideration is some kind of tweed wearing 1930s school marm, glaring through her pince nez before going home to her cat.

AIBU to think that it's possible to welcome young people into places while also giving older people equal right to enjoyment of a facility?

That is actually a good point about the very elderly having similarities in needs to the very young. I do find very old people often particularly enjoy young children.

It sounds very annoying. Ours iis child free every week day from 12 to 2 and then after 8!

Yes I see your point. We still have parents complaining in the school hols but the staff rigidity enforce it thankfully.

Dvg awful did you complain?

Family friendly should always be taken to mean 'child friendly'. There are lots of places, not necessarily expensive, where children aren't welcomed or accommodated.

Whether you like it or not children are as much a part of society as you and it's absurd to get purse lipped about sharing space with them. On occasion particular children might behave badly in public but the same is true of adults - many of us have had a pleasant lunch ruined by a group of loud and rowdy adults nearby.

user I agree 100% with your posts that family friendly should be age considerate and not just apply to families with children, especially in cafes/restaurants and libraries.

Some pp maybe don't notice the badly behaved children around them

There are areas that seniors dominate. Politics for example. And there are areas that children dominate. I think museums are becoming that way.

A little understanding in BOTH directions would be lovely.

I spent some of last summer in Italy and children were playing (including mine) in the restaurants. The difference was that instead of tutting, the older people were smiling and telling me what a wonderfully precious "bambina" I had.

If you don’t want young children in your restaurant, then find somewhere that’s not family friendly.
There are plenty of restaurants that I’d never dream of taking a child to.

Not all children are noisy, it’s very rare that my DH and I have our experience ruined by thoughtless parents and noisy kids, but then we don’t go to McDonald’s because that is most definitely a place for children, that’s not to say we have to go without if we want a burger, we just don’t go where children are the majority.

We have a Wetherspoons within staggering distance and we do eat there a lot, I think in 6 years we’ve left early twice due to other people’s kids. Are you expecting other people’s dc to sit stock still and in silence?

In general I find adults to be noisier than children. Your op comes across as a “children should be seen and not heard” type of person, I try to be more continental with my view to children, that is, we’ve all been one, so I m happy to see others going through what I have now out grown. children are the future and they only learn how to behave in a restaurant by experience.

I realise I’m lucky to have lots of choice due to my city location, but even when I lived in small towns, there was always a choice to visit the quiet pub with no kids or the livelier family friendly place opposite.

If you don’t like other people’s children, be more selective about where you visit. The world really doesn’t revolve around you.

I know what you mean OP. But I'm not sure anything can be done about it. I used to feel very irritated by small children in public until I had my own. Then I realised teaching children to behave with consideration isn't easy! Toddlers are egocentric, their brains are too underdeveloped to understand empathy or manners. I guess in the old days parents frightened them into 'good behaviour'. Nowadays this authoritarian parenting style is thought to be harmful to their development and sense of self. Children who are always controlled and constrained tend to be anxious and approval seeking as adults.

This is why I don't hustle my toddler out of restaurants when she has a tantrum, or tell her off when she's too noisy. They need to learn appropriate behaviour, but frightening or humiliating them isn't acceptable any more. I try to distract her, engage her but reserve discipline for things that could cause actual harm, like if she threw a plate or ran around people carrying trays.

In a restaurant they should know when their children's noise is getting to the stage where it's disturbing others and so on

I'm aware of her noise but disturbing others isn't our priority. Learning to sit at the table, use cutlery, join in conversation, order her food and drink etc are more important than if she gets a bit too loud. Children get loud when they're excited.

Where churches are concerned, the difficulty is that they're supposed to be welcoming to everyone of whatever age. And family services are a nightmare, both for parents (who actually would rather their children were in Sunday school), and for older people who want to be able to have time for quiet contemplation.

I've never really seen the benefit of family services at all. It sounds like a very good idea, but the reality is, if you have people of all ages together, their needs are very different and you won't be able to please everyone.

I think poor parenting is the problem. I love kids been looking after kids for decades but I am increasingly seeing poor behaviour not being managed or even noticed by parents - and I'm not just talking annoying I'm talking potentially dangerous to the children!

Letting children run riot crashing into tables in cafes/restaurants where there's hot liquids and sharp knives about, letting them run in and out of church doors when the church was on a main road, playing on escalators, climbing on shelving in supermarkets especially worrying in an aisle of glass containers...

Also potentially harmful behaviour around frail elderly and disabled people - bumping into people using walking frames, ramming wheelchairs with push along toys, "cutting up" people walking eith sticks or crutches.

I wouldn't have allowed any of my mindees or my dd or her friends (eg with us on days out etc) to behave like this.

Yet I see it regularly now and if you dare say anything to the parents you get a barrage of abuse!

I've even had a parent scream at me for stopping their child run into a busy main road and almost get run down!

The library thread the op refers to I almost posted on.

It wasn't just children being welcomed, it was an unrestricted poorly planned play area just plonked in the library. Totally inappropriate. Libraries don't need to be silent but quiet and calm yes. The op of that thread was trying to study, that's a normal valid use of a library, as is reading, doing research and these days many are needing to use libraries to access benefits and apply for jobs which requires a level of concentration hard to achieve if a lot of children are playing loudly nearby (the play area had been put right next to the computer bank iirc).

Yes children should be welcome in most places BUT they should also be taught how to behave in different places.

Proper play areas, soft play, parks, sports and leisure centres - run, jump. play, be loud, shout laugh loudly etc

Church, library - sit and be quiet and respectful

Restaurants, cafes - chat, laugh fine running around potentially causing accidents and causing stress for other customers and staff - no.

I'm verging on old fart territory now. My youngest is 7. One thing I have noticed since I had my eldest is things have got more child friendly over the years - they seem to make much more effort in a big range of places. I like it.
Ive also notived the rise of the mobile phone and basically the more involved with a phone the parent is, the more annoying the child is. Unless the child also has a phone to play on.

My experience is that the best family friendly places have different slots for different people.

A local church has "normal" church as well as schoolchildren and toddler slots. (When I see FB pics of Messy Church it looks really fun) I think that this is an excellent way to bring Christianity into 21st century UK life (and an excellent solution to dwindling church goers) It's not a church attached to a church school before anyone asks

I don't think there's a particularly negative attitude to "children" in general in the UK. I think there's a negative attitude to poorly behaved children. I've noticed that children in other European countries are brought up to respect others and to respect the places they are in. There's also a fantastic attitude to the elderly in countries like Italy and Spain.

However, in this country, there is a wave of entitled parents who believe that their child is superior to rules, manners and respect. Some parents allow their children to run riot in places that they should be taught to respect (churches and libraries are good examples), to destroy property, to run and play in restaurants where people are carrying food and eating, and to treat other adults with the same attitude that their parents usually have. Then there are the parents that can't be bothered to parent at all.

As a teacher I see a distinct lack of respect for adults in many children now, whereas years ago this wasn't the case. In a lot of cases, you can see where they've got it from.

Also, there seem to be a lot of middle class families that have feral, rude, inconsiderate and superior children. It's horrible. I don't think the parents are even aware in a lot of these cases as they are too busy doing other naice things to actually parent.

Disclaimer : I am absolutely not saying ALL children are like this, nor all parents. Obviously there are many, many wonderful, kind, polite and considerate children.

Also, as someone said above, it's not a problem with children being children. That's absolutely lovely.

Some adults are indeed loud and annoying, particularly when there is alcohol involved. Again, completely different attitudes in the UK. Other countries must find our drunken binge-drinking behaviour shocking.

Dvg Many years ago i was in a restaurant where there were kids running about.

A woman on the opposite side of the restaurant ordered spaghetti bolognese.

She started to eat then stopped to say something to the bloke with her.

Then one of the kids who had been running around stood up and brought his hand down hard .............SPLAT............right into the centre of her spag bol . It went everywhere...........the tablecloth .wall next to them and all over her blouse and face + hair.

I remember seeing the waiter apologise and they brought her another meal but the parents offrered ZIP!

YY Cope My DM is Italian and you are absolutely right.

Old people love biscuits right?

Totally agree with you cope. I’ve noticed when I visit family overseas that older people are more respected and listened to. Was on a tram when a group of teens were messing about (being daft). An older woman called for them to move away from the door and behave. The kids stopped immediately. Over here they’d be likely to face s barrage of abuse. I’m from an immigrant family and the older members were treat with respect and consideration. There seems to be far more segregation of old and young now which is sad as both age groups can benefit from being in each other’s company. The programme where nursery kids went into a care home showed just how important it is that we don’t have one set of places for the young and another for the old. That just seems unnatural. Kids are part of the human race not a special group that should only be welcome in some settings but not others. Same with the elderly,

crisscross I only like chocolate biscuits. The rest are a bit of a waste of space imo

Wonderlime nowhere did I say or even imply that all young children are screaming brats. But an increasing amount of parents seem to allow their children to take over in public areas, and that's what I'm talking about.

YANBU. It’s also very annoying when you have your children with you and they’re behaving well and the brat brigade ruin their experience too and undermine the rules.

I think poor parenting is the problem. I love kids been looking after kids for decades but I am increasingly seeing poor behaviour not being managed or even noticed by parents - and I'm not just talking annoying I'm talking potentially dangerous to the children!

Yes, this.

"and I'm not just talking annoying I'm talking potentially dangerous to the children!"

I do wonder if parents like this are half hoping for something to happen.

£££££££££££££££££££££££!

I almost mentioned the blame/claim culture but thought I'd be flamed.

I believe with a bit of thought and consideration from all parties - coexistence amongst age groups is possible and quite a positive thing.

But the key is consideration...!

From the subject, I was thinking this thread was going to be about “family friendly “ in respect to workplaces, and so on. I am a carer for my elderly parent and have found while employers are willing to give parents of small children first pick of holidays, rota days, work from home etc., few are sympathetic when it comes to the myriad appointments and emergencies that follow from having adult dependents.