Repeal the 8th

[SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace]

So DH and I are currently visiting my DF and DStepM in Southern Ireland (where I grew up).

Just answered the door to a couple who are looking for support in the referendum and wanted us to pledge that we would vote no.

No for context I am just 6 weeks away from giving birth to DC3 (so clearly very heavily pregnant) and they still had the audacity to argue with me when I said I didn't agree with them and I supported any woman's right to decide what happens to her body.

They started trying to show me pictures of 10 week old babies in the womb (not necessary obviously in the circumstances) and weren't pleased that I didn't agree with them given that I'm carrying a baby myself.

I'm sorry I don't really have an actual AIBU I just wanted to rant a bit and show support for the people who have to face this absolute shit every day until the referendum. We're going home to the UK on Thursday so I won't have it all thrown in my face anymore but I just think the guilt tripping is horrendous 😞

Did you see the article about the doctor who is claiming that no woman has died because of the 8th? From what I managed to read where he was question on the cases where a woman did die because of the 8th his argument is that he's either not aware of it or can't comment because he doesn't know the details.

Marvellous. Worrying he'll be held in high regard by some.

I confess to not reading all the article.

Yes, @StripySocksandDocs, I heard that tonight and I thought the same. His influence could be far-reaching as he is in a high position.

How anyone thinks that they have the right to deny a woman the freedom to choose what happens to her own body even if they themselves are anti abortion baffles me.

Yep, that's how I see it but I can tell you that for people who believe the feotus is a life they're weighing up "killing" (I know, I know) a baby against "woman having to be pregnant for 9 months". Believe it or not, lots of people don't see a no vote as denying women's rights, they find it quite easy to justify forcing you or me to continue with an unwanted pregnancy because that's not as bad as being "killed".

I only hope those who are still undecided actually do read some of the heartbreaking experiences of the many women who have shared their stories because I think most of the firm no's find it easy to box those off separately in their heads. I'm not sure though. You hear "yeah, my heart goes out to her, I can't even imagine but still I couldn't do it". Or the women who think they know about the effect on another's mental health because "I thought it was the end of the world when I found out I was pregnant but I wouldn't be without them, it all worked out". Don't even get me started on all those whose sisters friends cousins milkman's wife was told X, Y and Z by doctors but "her little fella is 4 now and he's nowhere near as bad as they said he'd be" . Lots of people can't and don't want to see past their own experience.

Just a note I should have put in my original OP, the couple at the door also tried to push the fact that so many women are traumatised by abortion. I said I wasn't disputing the fact that I'm sure there are lots of women who have long term phycological effects after an abortion but at the end of the day it's their choice. Also I didn't think it was right to force someone to bring a baby into the world that isn't wanted although apparently that doesn't happen and no baby is ever no wanted! It really got my back up.

I always wonder SnowWhite where their concern for women's mental health goes after the birth . And whether their concern for our mental health extends to being as vocal about sexual assault, domestic abuse, general societal misogyny as they are about abortion. I suspect not in most cases.

Pro-choice and from the UK so unfortunately no vote.

Just wanted to rant about the fact that a lot of pro-lifers who are going to vote no are older and most likely won't have to go through it, and men WHO WILL NEVER EVER HAVE TO GO THROUGH IT. I saw this post on fb actually which is perfect in my opinion.

My first vote age 18 was the abortion ref in '92. We all thought all the youth will vote yes but unfortunately so many people are against abortion & can't see past this to allow women to make their own choices

????? The pro-choice side 'won' all three of the 1992 referendums. (Won insofar as we could as the amendments offered were appalling.) The 12th amendment was to make suicidal feelings inadmissible as a threat to the pregnant woman's life. The Supreme Court had decided during the X-case that suicide was a valid threat to her life so the 12th amendment was created to close that avenue. The public rejected it.

The 13th amendment was to guarantee women the right to travel for abortion. The public agreed to it. The 14th amendment was to make it legal for members of the public to be given information about abortion in other countries and the public voted to guarantee that right.

After the 12th amendment was rejected the government was legally required to legislate for it. They refused to, as did successive governments for 10 years. In 2002 there was another referendum on the 25th proposed amendment, designed to remove the threat of suicide and create harsh penalties for anyone performing an abortion. It was defeated.

I know that we can't guarantee anything here but the 8th amendment was introduced 35 years ago and even back then 1/3 of the voters rejected it. At least half of the people who voted it in are almost certainly dead while the majority of the 33.10% of voters who rejected it are not only alive (because there was a clear young/old divide in 83) but are the parents and even grandparents of voters who have been raised pro-choice.

We are a very, very different electorate to that of 1983. There have been 4 attempts to further restrict women since then and they have all been rejected. The church is has lost almost all of it's influence, the 2015 marriage referendum made that very clear. As even rural communities which were traditionally conservative (up until 2015 in any 'morality' referendum to do with marriage/pregnancy etc only Dublin and it's commuter areas, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford cities ever voted against the church. There has always been a very clear urban-liberal/rural-conservative divide in referenda but in 2015 it was became an urban-firmly liberal/rural-mostly liberal.) Every single major political party is supporting repeal. This has never, ever happened. And the polls are all showing the 8th being repealed.

It's not won, not by any means but this battle is far, far from lost.

Point taken. So sorry for your miscarriage losses, it must be very difficult to see these awful pictures.

It's not as hard as it would have been some years ago but it's still dreadful. especially when I know women who are struggling massively with them and the "Love Both" hypocrites who put them up don't give a shit.

I’m 37, from Dublin, and (unfortunately) I know plenty of people of my age and stage who will be voting No.

When I was in college one of my friends asked if I’d like to go to a talk about women’s health from a lovely female GP.

I went along and the GP in question was a staunch pro-lifer and her guest was an American woman whose mother had been raped. This lady was here because her mother had chosen to follow through with the resulting pregnancy. It was an extremely emotive session and very carefully crafted by the pro-life side.

Last year, the president of the Students’ Union of the largest college in Ireland was an active member of the pro-life campaign.

There are many people in their 20s and 30s who will be voting no.

The problem with this debate in a country like Ireland is that the bible is clear where it stands.

Remove religion as an influencer and there'd be no need to even have this debate.

I cannot possibly see how a country that could vote on gay marriage would say no to this, just wouldn’t tally.

I’m Irish, I just came back from Easter near cork and didn’t see any reference to it whatsoever in terms of campaigns.

I hate that argument TheEagle!!!
It is a miracle any of us is here after all..

Thank you for great post Tringley

Omg!! Kicked out of fb on what grounds?
Disgraceful vindictive behaviour. Fb obviously dont investigate anything. They must respond in a automated way to a reporting.

Wow. Thanks for reporting! Proactive.
I would have been disgusted but would have assumed mn just took the business. Glad to hear it slipped thtough.

With regards to the President of the Student Union in UCD she got impeached, my sister goes there & most people can't stand her.

Also, I think there's just as much of a chance as a Dubliner voting "No" as I know some Dubs who will surprisingly.. Sadly enough.

I think it's more to do with being Catholic! My gran is basically brainwashed by the church, you can't even have a conversation about the 8th as she will start calling us disgusting for voting Yes.. It's actually mental. Never seen anything like it in my life!!

Everyone deserves the choice to choose. I'm praying that it goes through and we'll finally have the choice. Absolute nonsense that in this day and age the church STILL has that hold over the country. Can't stand it.

Can't believe they're handing out awful flyers like that. So vulgar & offensive. That can really hit the wrong emotions for people who have had miscarriages etc.

By the by, I grew up in the US (now UK based.) I am sorry but not at all surprised to see US groups landing to help finance and canvas the pro life cause. My experience on the east coast is that some Americans seem to think they are stakeholders in Irish issues but they want Ireland to stay just the same as it is in the storybooks. Ballykissangel is a documentary, right? It's mind bending. Very little knowledge of modern Ireland though.

(Having said all that I'd like to see if I can give to the pro choice cause....)

Doesnt the bible also say babies are worth nothing and if a young child is killed then a paltry amount of money absolves the murderer? And that the doul doesnt enter the body until breath? My grandparents used to argue it when i was a teen.

Between my parents sorry, not grandparents

@AllNamesTakenhell

I don't think so but God does have a thing about killing babies when he's a bit angry.

"the people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

"Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

"Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts."

"kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately." that's the one where god tells them to keep the virgins "for yourselves"

Abortion is only OK if God does it. Killing children once they're born is fine too.

Anyone who gets their morality or guidance from the bible shouldn't be in an position of influence or around children anyway. Of course they may try to write off all the genocide and infanticide and rape as 'allegorical' but that's equally fucked up.

I paid particular attention to the campaigns on my way into work today (south central Dublin).

The anti-repeal side have far more coverage. It's all highly emotive stuff about foetuses hiccuping at 9 weeks and 1 in 5 babies aborted in evil GB (seriously???)

I only saw one repeal poster and (Labour) and it was very restrained in comparison, referencing compassion for the woman.

That doesn't bode well.

Ballykissangel is a documentary, right? It's mind bending. Very little knowledge of modern Ireland though.

A relative of my elderly neighbour who has lived in America since the 50s visited her a few years back and disgustedly told her that we'd ruined Ireland. All our cars and electricity and mobile phones! It just wasn't the way Ireland should be. She really let rip at him reminding him that the people who live here are real people living real lives and not characters in a theme park here for to service the fantasies of ridiculous idiots who haven't set foot in the country for decades and if he didn't like it he could fuck off.

In all seriousness though, it's why we can't have a postal vote system for ex-pats like many other countries have. So many Irish people who emigrated decades ago and who will never return have a desperate desire for the country to have remained in amber since they left. Or worse than that, to match the fantasy they have built up in their memories. It's even more dangerous because of our grandparent rule on citizenship, meaning that 10s of millions of people who have never set foot in the country and hold us up as some fucked up mythical land of saints and scholars (and religiously brainwashed drunks) would be eligible to vote on our constitution. The result would be a country stuck in a social dark ages with the actual residents powerless for legislation to match our actual social mores.

Unfortunately trinity your daughter won't be able to vote, she had to be 18 by February 15th.

She can, they called out that people had to register by May 8th on the radio so must have decided to extend it or something, I've been talking to someone in my County Council about it

You can apply at any time to be registered to vote. However, when an election or referendum has been announced, there is a cut-off date after which you cannot be registered in time to vote. For example, for the forthcoming referendum on 25 May 2018, the local authority must receive your application by the following dates:

For the supplement to the Register of Electors: Tuesday 8 May 2018
For the supplement to the Postal Voters List: Saturday 28 April 2018
For the supplement to the Special Voters List: Saturday 28 April 2018

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

If your name is not on the Register of Electors in February, you can apply to be included in a supplement to it, using Form RFA2.

You can apply at any time. However, you can only be included in the supplement used at an election or referendum if your local authority receives your application at least 15 days before polling day. Sundays, public holidays and Good Friday are not counted as days for this purpose.

For the forthcoming referendum on 25 May 2018, the local authority must receive your application by Tuesday 8 May.

You are eligible for inclusion in the supplement to the Register of Electors on or after the day on which you reach 18 years of age. You can be included if this birthday falls after the closing date for applications but is on or before polling day. If you are in this situation, it is advisable to enclose a copy of your birth certificate or similar document with your application.