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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish my son would be kinder to my daughter

85 replies

Disabrie22 · 07/04/2018 00:13

DS aged 7 3/4 and DD aged 5 - he’s just so mean to her all the time. Won’t play with her in the park or in any days out like trampoline parks. He puts her down and moans she gets him into trouble. Nothing we say seems to change the way he treats her. He is punished when mean - stern words, Room time, no tech.
What would you do?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/04/2018 05:16

How much of what is going on is getting attention for bad behaviour? Ask yourself honestly.

You mention trouble when DS is with friends - there are two elements to that -
First - some of what he is doing is treating her badly in order to build credibility with the friends.
Approach him with the suggestion that his friends are not actually all that impressed by his showing off, and that what he is doing is immature and all his friends see through it.

Second - when he is with his friends, don't let DD horn in. Ditto the other way round if that ever happens.

Boys can sometimes argue that when girls cry they are 'cheating' in the context of the rivalry dynamic. They tend to be very harsh with other boys who cry in similar situations.
Maybe this is how he defines 'getting him into trouble'?
You need to sit him down and get to the bottom of his perspective here, and correct if necessary. He may argue that you mete out more punishment when DD cries. (Ask yourself if this is true). Of course focusing on the negatives associated with crying is also a way of shrugging off responsibility on his part (and the part of many boys) for causing someone else to feel so overwhelmed. At almost 8 though, your DS is old enough to separate truth from self-serving narrative, so you need to impress upon him that other people's feelings are valid, that the way people are treated by others can cause them distress, and he needs to stop reacting the way he does to how feelings of others are expressed.
You need to keep on repeating this.

Is DS's father in the picture?
He needs to speak very strongly to DS if so, with the same message about the validity of other people's feelings, how they express them, and how people can cause distress in others.
He also needs to address the ganging up and meanness when with friends, and to reinforce 'what other boys are really thinking of him, deep down'.
The mob type behaviour must be commented on and there must be consequences. Don't be afraid to call out your DS and the other boys on this even while they are together.

Does DS usually complain that others are getting him into trouble, apart from DD?
Does he take personal responsibility and apologise if hauled up for any mischief or bad behaviour outside of his interactions with DD?
Does he make excuses or blame others or resent being given out to or given consequences?
If so, try to refocus him on his specific role, and responsibility.
Assure him that you, the parent, will deal justly with any others who behave badly, and that how you choose to do that is not the focus of the present discussion.

Watch out for goading and manipulation on the part of both children. When they are together, make the time to observe without being seen.

You can increase DS's self esteem by giving him some household chores, making him do them, giving praise for a job well done and informative feedback if the job was not up to scratch. This requires commitment and consistency from you (and DS's father or father figure if present). Both DCs could be encouraged to work together on limited tasks with supervision.

Teach him to cook a simple meal. Eat together as much as possible as a family. Compliment the meal.
When DD gets to almost 8, do the same.
Compliment both the DCs daily as much as possible on accomplishments or good behaviour. Keep a fridge door gallery of photos, artwork, certificates from activities, etc. Balance each child's representation.
Make time to spend with each child separately. An hour or two of undivided attention per week. Keep things positive during this time. Time can be spent folding sheets together, mucking out a neglected cupboard, etc. Doesn't have to be a fun filled expensive outing at all. Much better if not. Don't use this time as a bargaining chip/withdrawal of time as a punishment.

Lots of really good points here:
www.mottchildren.org/posts/your-child/sibling-rivalry

Some good reading suggestions at the end too.

Disabrie22 · 07/04/2018 05:42

Sound advice - thank you so much all. Dad is in the picture - we have been mulling this together for the last month since it stepped up so these fresh points of view are really useful.

OP posts:
thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 07/04/2018 05:50

My best friend who I grew up with has an older brother. He was vile to her their entire childhood until they're early twenties. No reason.

When he got married and had a child everything changed and he became Much nicer to her.

But she really had an awful time of it before that and there wasn't anything anyone could do.

whiteroseredrose · 07/04/2018 05:53

Mine have a 3.5 year age gap, older DS and younger DD just like yours. They were awful to each other at roughly those ages too, right up until they were about 13 and 10. They'd fight and argue over everything and anything. Then things started to change. They are now 18 and 15 and get on really well. They were up late together last night laughing, chatting and watching comedy on TV together.

My advice is to think of them as individuals and not expect them to play together. On holidays or days out do things that are age appropriate for both but accept that they'll play independently or you're going to be the one playing with DD. You need to entertain her, not him. Don't try to force it. We'd usually pair up with DH with DS and then DD with me. Bit by bit as they grew older they'd chat a bit more and wander off to do occasional things together but it was their choice, not imposed by us.

You mention DS and his friends running away from your DD. I'd want to know why she's with them in the first place. I'd be telling her to leave the boys alone and not try to join in or follow them. How embarrassing for him to have his baby sister trying to tag along. Doesn't she have a friend of her own over at the same time?

I'd also echo what others have said about keeping an eye on what's really going on before you punish DS for being mean. Try to quietly watch the build up to him lashing out. Your DD may be deliberately annoying him or trying to get him into trouble. I once caught my DD aged about 5 crying and slapping herself saying 'Ow DS's name that hurts!' hoping to get him into trouble. Nowadays DD admits that she often did things like that when she was little but it took us a while to cotton on.

Disabrie22 · 07/04/2018 05:56

My daughter actually says she wishes she didn’t have a brother - but in a really quiet sad way and I’ve heard her tell other girls that they don’t understand how hard it is to have a brother. That’s another reason why I’m thinking about it so much. He has four good friends all with little sisters the same age and we spend a lot of time together - they are generally kinder (they do fight of course) which has made me try and identify why they are so different. I’ll follow the advice and update in a few months xxx

OP posts:
PlumsGalore · 07/04/2018 06:37

Mine have a three year gap and are now grown. They were exactly the same, right until adulthood, and even now they are not close, unless someone tries to hurt or insult the other, then blood really is thicker than water.

In almost every opposite sex sibling relationship I have seen (and that is literally dozens as my kids have been right through school, college and uni and have lots of cousins) the ones that are close and had harmonic childhood relationships were almost always girl first followed by boy.

Sadly not the other way round. That includes myself, close to younger brother fought constantly with older.

Caulk · 07/04/2018 06:41

I would be trying to identify why he is acting this way. Is he trying to assert some authority or acting in a bullying manner because of how he is treated somewhere else (School/club etc)

mathanxiety · 07/04/2018 06:52

This^

Hobnobsarenotfordunking · 07/04/2018 06:59

I think you shouldn’t bother trying to get them to play together but I also think any naming calling or meaness should have serious consequences.

If this was happening in school you would be straight to the teacher over bullying, to be bullied in your own home must be very difficult for your DD to live with.

Just because they are siblings does not excuse bullying or make it s normal part of growing up.

Spaghettijumper · 07/04/2018 07:00

I have a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old girl. They do fight now and again but they also spend hours playing nicely together and they are very kind and lovely to each other most of the time. Why? Because I taught them. I sat with them and literally taught them, step by step, how you play nicely with your sibling and I very heavily praised and rewarded loving behaviour. I emphasise how important brothers and sisters are and how they must look after each other. If they are being nasty about each other (rare these days) their 'punishment' is to sit quietly for a minute and think of something nice to say about the other one. They see it as a sort of competition these days and try to outdo each other in niceness which as you can imagine has led to some teary moments for me. It changes the atmosphere straight away from negative to positive.

I don't agree at all with the comments to just do nothing - if your child couldn't dress himself, would you just do nothing and wait till he figured it out? Siblings can be such a source of joy, but only if parents actively support the relationship.

Schnauzermum2 · 07/04/2018 07:00

You need to view them as two independent people.,I think a lot of parents have this romanticised image of their two kids playing together supporting each other throughout life. You see it a lot on holiday. The older kid wants to run off and play football with the mates he’s met in holiday club but the parents insist he takes his little sister or plays with her instead. You only have to look on here to see just because people share parents doesn’t mean they get along. Stop forcing the issue cos that’s one way to destroy any relationship they might have

speakout · 07/04/2018 07:16

I agree wit the others.

My two just don't gel as individuals. They tolerate each other and co exist, but are very different characters.
Even now as older teens they don't choose to spend time with each other.
It would have been nice if they had been buddies, but it's just the way things are sometimes.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 07/04/2018 07:17

Difficult one. I'd lay down strong boundaries for both of them - no meanness, no trying to get each other into trouble, no hitting, no namecalling.
But also leave them to play separately if that's what they want to do.

I have 2 boys with a 5 year age gap - they do sometimes play well together, as DS2 has a tendency to like everything DS1 likes, but sometimes DS1 just needs space from DS2. I don't force them to play together unless it's one of their shared interests - the number of times I hear one or other of them saying "do you want a beyblade battle?" and the other one says "no!" just because. I remind them both then that they BOTH do this, and they should both learn to be a bit more obliging, otherwise they'll both end up with no one to play with! This usually works ok - unless the one who was refusing to play had a decent reason for refusing.

Believeitornot · 07/04/2018 07:20

Read Siblings without Rivalry and actively help them as children. You’re labelling a bit and seeing your ds as the mean one. This is implied favouritism as you see yourself like your dd.

Seriously, read it. I’ve got two, 8&6, boy and girl. My dh sees ds as the older mean one but actually it’s more than that.

They’re both children and won’t automatically know how to get on.

Believeitornot · 07/04/2018 07:22

@Spaghettijumper put it better than me.

AllNamesTakenhell · 07/04/2018 07:34

Just be careful you arent biasing towards your dd especially given your history. One of my younger sister's loved to play the quiet sad little one to my parents and wind us up to the point where we were in trouble. It was all the more frustrating because she could play them so easily and we were the ones always in trouble. You can't help but feel they are favoured.

You have some really good advice on how to speak to ds. When you talk about encouraging friends to run from dd, are they her feiends or his? What age?

parrotonmyshoulder · 07/04/2018 07:38

I was just going to recommend ‘Siblings without Rivalry’ and see that someone else has. It’s really good and has helpful suggestions. I found, in particular, the idea of not putting your children into ‘roles’ a really useful one and something I’ve been able to put into practice.

Mine are 3 years apart and get on well a lot of the time. I tend to separate them when they don’t as it’s usually a sign they are tired/ fractious/ need a break.

parrotonmyshoulder · 07/04/2018 07:40

DH and I have noticed that he tends to favour the older one in a dispute and I tend to favour the younger one. This is our own birth order and I do think we empathise with what’s going on there. So we make a conscious effort to either see the other child’s perspective, which sometimes requires the other parent to ‘translate’.

Introvertedbuthappy · 07/04/2018 07:54

My brother was a manipulative bully despite being 2.5 years old. At aged 5 and up he could summon tears at will and threaten if I wouldn't play with him or do what he wanted he would say I hit him or was mean to him. He would do the sad little voice too "Mummy, why won't she be kind to me?" It was awful. Id be especially wary given the 'getting into trouble' comment.

As an aside, why are you letting her tag along her brother when he has friends over? That's so unfair, he must be embarrassed. My two have almost 7 years between them and play well together (mainly because little one worships his brother) but eldest definitely needs his own space regularly and one to one time, and when he has friends round I make sure DS2 leaves them well alone. Being able to say when he's ready for a break to read in his room etc means he enjoys time with his brother more. Modelling that is also important.

thegreylady · 07/04/2018 08:00

My two have a 4 year age gap and when they were little they were horrid to one another. Dd aged two used to deliberately kick over the farm or whatever that ds aged 6 and his friend had set up. He would push her, she would cry and I admit I sometimes told him off for ‘hurting the baby’.
When she was 5 she took her craft scissors and cut a hole in the tablecloth...in his place thinking I would blame him.
In their teens he regularly scammed her out of her pocket money for various projects of his.
Now in their forties they are incredibly close even though they live in different countries.
All will be well op.
Flowers

Dancinggoat · 07/04/2018 08:02

There's a good book. Siblings without rivalry. Worth a read.
The behaviour could escalate and it could also be happening because you are dealing with it incorrectly without meaning too.

pandarific · 07/04/2018 08:09

Do watch out for manipulation from the younger ones. Extremely common, leads to seething resentment and not so great character traits being encouraged in the younger one.

Peanutbuttercups21 · 07/04/2018 08:12

Yes, be careful to label one as "the mean one"

I have an acquaintance who labels her older DS as "the black sheep, he is so mean all the time" and the youngest as her "angel" Hmm

The "angel" bullied my DS at school, but she never believed that.

Both kids were just kids really, but she had this thing in her head. The oldest boy could do no right, every little thing got picked on. The younger child was seen with a forgiving eye.

The youngest was so clearly The Favourite, but she herself could not see it

What do other people think of your DS? For example, do grannies think he is a nice boy?

BertrandRussell · 07/04/2018 08:13

There's 4 years between mine. Not sure if this would work with only 2- but what really helped was me acknowledging to dd that I understood her little brother was a pain in the neck sometimes-and sometimes I thought he was too. Sometimes I would ask her to play with him "to keep him happy while I get lunch-thank you so much" and that would extend into more play because she actually discovered that she could have fun with him (for a limited period!). They need to be helped to have a good relationship- it doesn't just happen. Be strict about telling tales (we had a "I will only listen if someone is really hurt or really upset" policy). And work at making them into a little "gang". Not quite an anti parent gang but something like that!

mathanxiety · 07/04/2018 08:18

I meant to add that the beauty of giving children a chore or two and allowing them to contribute by preparing a simple meal is that they learn they have a valued place in the family. If a child is feeling resentful or unjustly picked on those feelings can dissipate when he feels appreciated. Developing competence and feeling like a valued team member is always a positive.