How can it be possible that we would be so skint!

[BasinHaircut]

Just doing some sums to basically work out whether we can ‘afford’ to have another child. We can, but I’ve just worked out that even though DH and I bring home £4500 per month net, PLUS childcare vouchers of £385 per month, once paying another set of childcare fees 4 days per week, after everything was paid out each month we would have £750 left over for food, petrol and other spends. There would be 4 of us to feed so let’s say £300 a month, plus £100 petrol. £350 for all of us for anything else.

How is it possible that we would have so little? I know it would be short term (until free 15 hours kick in and then better again once they started school) but what the fuck???

Going through our expenses it’s only things such as amazon prime and Apple Music that we could feasibly claw back each month. Nothing that would make a dent.

We are lucky I suppose that we own our house, have renovated it already so not expecting any big expenses in the medium term. But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle!

This is not a stealth boast I promise, I genuinely cannot understand how we can have so much coming in and still not even have enormous go to justify a takeaway if we have another child.

one can't maintain professional jobs without a basic level of personal expenditure. And yes we could scale down but what about the cleaner and the gardener and if one of us gave up work so we didn't need them our tax contributions would be gone

I seriously despair if you can't see how utterly ridiculous you sound here.

Your outgoings include £400 a month for cleaning and gardening, £450 a month for home and car insurance. You're perfectly able to 'maintain a professional job' without living in an expensive detached house and running pricey cars (assumed, judging by the insurance costs). You also don't have to pay for cleaning and gardening...there are many people who have busy, long hours and manage to do their own without having to give up work to fit it in.

Of course you should pay for these things if you want them...but to try and label them as some kind of necessity due to your professional job is ludicrous.

Squeezed middle.

If your loan is home improvement related could you remortgage to include it? More expensive long term but your mortgage seems quite low and it could free up some disposable income.

I don't know about the tax saving childcare options that are available now but you used to be able to take them and save the vouchers over a maternity leave, which could help with the first year of eye watering costs.

Ours didn't cover 1.5 days of nursery.

Do you need the car at all? If you could manage without one for four years it could save you a fair bit.

Try saving the difference from now until you have the baby? To see if it's doable and to have that buffer for unexpected costs.

Is it just me then who's still reeling from the absolute fucking slavery of 30 hours housework for £75 from an "au pair"

How it that legal

How the

secretbum. You don't comprehend the scale of 12/15 hour days. Yes plenty of people work hard and clean a 1500 sq ft house, treble that and actually it's challenging. Our choice and our home. Think beyond luxury cars to a teenager or two with an old banger.

Au pair is 25 hours of light domestic duties and childcare for 3/4 year old + children. It's a family exchange. Ours got £80pw ten years ago and a dbl bedroom, bath and sitting room, language classes, use of our health club, a phone and two return flights home. Perfectly legal and more spending money than the op as all food and bills are found.

he problem though isn't the cost of childcare. It's the cost of housing. Pound to a penny OPs accommodation would have been much cheaper in real terms 20 years ago, and a lower percentage of their household income. This is a huge issue

Her mortgage is 900 a month on an income of NET 5k a month. No, it would not have been cheaper 20 years ago, or at any other time.

You don't comprehend the scale of 12/15 hour days

Christ could you be more patronising? You have no idea how many hours I work or what I can 'comprehend ' at all

Yes plenty of people work hard and clean a 1500 sq ft house, treble that and actually it's challenging. Our choice and our home

You're right. It is your choice and good for you...why shouldn't you pay for a cleaner? But you can do so whilst realising it is still a choice, an extra, a luxury, call it what you will. Something extra you pay for to make life nicer. Which is great. But it's not necessary to having a professional job is it?

Is it just me then who's still reeling from the absolute fucking slavery of 30 hours housework for £75 from an "au pair"

It's not slavery at all, but you won't find many who will accept so little, it's normally around £100+ a week (plus some benefits, travel card/ phone/gym membership or lessons)

You get free room and board, and pocket money in exchange for light childcare, and you should have all your evenings and weekends off. Some families do take the piss, and either try to feed you beans on toast, or exploit you, but on the whole everybody is winning. It would be very hard for someone with no experience, and nearly no english to come and spend a few months otherwise.

Appreciating this thread hasn’t well, I think it’s good to budget in advance. We live in the SE, I earn good money and still we watch money carefully. We found a nanny more cost effective for two children and more flexible timing wise. I do work 4 days and we do juggle childcare on some days between us to reduce costs.
I am hoping when they go to school
Childcare costs reduce but it’s a bigger juggling act so not by as much as we’d like!

secretbum I'm sorry but when one renders 5 12-15 hour days and has paperwork for six hoursbon Sundays, a cleaner isn't a nice to have it's an absolute necessity.

Only on mumsnet would someone say how easy 4.5j goes and lists a fucking horse as expenditure wtf !!!

And only on MN would someone maintain a cleaner and a gardener are necessities, along with their adult children's rent and car insurance. How the other half live.

Downstairs- I did state that it was not part of the compulsory purchasing. Plus, I do extra work to pay for it. I’m a teacher so every year I work extra, such as teaching revision courses, marking examination papers and writing for educational papers/online sites. This pays for the luxury. Our income would be approx £6000 less per year if I didn’t top- up my wage.
The dog is also a ‘luxury’. Minus those two my outgoings are not unusual.

So I could cancel out the incoming £6k a year and say my incoming is £4.1k per month and remove the £350 for the horse. It’s pretty much the same.

People who earn reasonable wages don’t necessarily feel any less ‘skint’ as in, they too can feel the pinch when a car breaks down or when the boiler dies, or when the kids need new shoes. I work extra to ensure my kids don’t go without and so that we don’t get in debt. BUT we are not bathing in money, it certainly never feels like we have a lot- we still have to be careful where we shop and what we buy. Probably a lot less than other families- believe me I’m aware of that!

technically, children are a luxury, unless you get them to work and bring a wage by the time they turn 5.

While the Op and her family certainly won't be living in poverty if they go ahead and have a second child, I can definitely see why she is shocked at how little they'd have left over each month relative to their take home pay given what they earn. I'm well aware that £350 a month could make a massive difference to lots of people's lives but lets be honest here - if someone posts on one of those how much do you earn threads that their household income is £80k+ the majority of people assume they are living a particular lifestyle. In fact, lots of posters would absolutely insist that they were rich. So you'd imagine that say, a week in Spain every year would be manageable. And that their choice of clothes shops would be more joules and Boden than Primark and Matalan. And that they could afford to eat out once or twice a month. Wouldn't you?

Now my heart won't bleed for them if they can't because no they're not on the bones of their arse but I can definitely see why they'd be shocked. All fine and well to say you don't have to go to soft play or coffee shops etc but come on, if the high earners are getting to a point where these things are considered luxuries what hope is there for people on low and middle incomes?

Sorry, you’re bringing home 4.5k a month and can’t afford two kids? You either massively overspend or have ridiculous outgoings.
Don’t have another child then

CocoPuffsInGodMode yep agree with you. I also think that for me personally growing up I thought 80k was masses of money & meant you were rich so you have to readjust your expectations. Some of my friends pay 2-2.5k just on their mortgage & no they do not live in mansions.

Agree bluelady . I've given up, you can't reason with the wilfully blind. Obviously money doesn't automatically mean you have any common sense.

OK maybe slavery is too strong a word once you subtract food and lodgings from minimum wage. But there is a difference between getting money and then choosing where you want to live, and having to live where you work. So I don't think you can do a simple calculation. It's like how a £10 gift voucher is actually worth less than £10.

The au pair thing has never seemed quite right to me. We don't have butlers and manservants any more (well maybe the very rich do) but somehow the female domestic servant role has survived. What do blokes do when they want to visit a foreign country for a few months? They manage it somehow without needing to be au pairs. Perhaps because there are more options open to them?

£750 pm after bills is not a massive amount:
For most people who have to drive to work
£35 per week petrol
School dinners (if not having packed lunch) £10 per week per child
Hair cuts (even if only for children)
Pocket money for teens (who inevitably want to do things with friends)
Play groups/activities with kids if its pouring with rain/freezing cold.
Occasional night out, even if only once a month or two
Clothes and shoes - like it or not kids need clothes, there needs to be a budget for it, even if buying second hand
Sports - football subs, etc etc
School trips
Other school stuff
Parties - kids get invited, want to go, have to take present
Dentist - adults have to pay NHS or not
Car problems - car tax, repairs, MOT etc etc
Public transport costs
Repairs around the house

The list goes on. There are so many more things that need budgeting for other than food and basic bills and it all adds up very very quickly.

Okay so no one has to do any of the above but I bet the majority do.

Adult children's rent? It's their maintenance at university.

i dont get having 4.5k a month and mortgage £900 leaving £3.4k

what is the 3.4k left for,yes i know CT,food etc but that cant hit that number

You said it was their rent, Healing. Same thing, anyway, ours had student loans.

chaoticgood
I have been an au-pair, and have employed au-pair (more recently). It' really isn't slavery! Male au-pair are very popular too, what makes you believe only female are au-pairs?

There are not many jobs you can do in London that will give you free time during the day to study, free evenings and free weekends, when you are unqualified and don't speak the language.

You don't know the meaning of skint. Try searching down the side of the sofa so you can find a few coins to make up what you need for bread . Spoilt little rich girl imo