How can it be possible that we would be so skint!

[BasinHaircut]

Just doing some sums to basically work out whether we can ‘afford’ to have another child. We can, but I’ve just worked out that even though DH and I bring home £4500 per month net, PLUS childcare vouchers of £385 per month, once paying another set of childcare fees 4 days per week, after everything was paid out each month we would have £750 left over for food, petrol and other spends. There would be 4 of us to feed so let’s say £300 a month, plus £100 petrol. £350 for all of us for anything else.

How is it possible that we would have so little? I know it would be short term (until free 15 hours kick in and then better again once they started school) but what the fuck???

Going through our expenses it’s only things such as amazon prime and Apple Music that we could feasibly claw back each month. Nothing that would make a dent.

We are lucky I suppose that we own our house, have renovated it already so not expecting any big expenses in the medium term. But still, even Xmas would be a real struggle!

This is not a stealth boast I promise, I genuinely cannot understand how we can have so much coming in and still not even have enormous go to justify a takeaway if we have another child.

I can understand this a bit more on thinking it over. £350 a month for extras is only around £10 per day. And if car repairs, house repairs, birthday Christmas, meals out and so on all have to come out of that it isn't a huge amount when people think they earn a fairly good wage. . It's the outgoings that are huge. I think it depends on what the outgoings are and if they can be cut down on.

I agree it's frustrating OP (I'm in a v similar position).

I don't really know what the answer would be though. Free/subsidised childcare, I suppose? But that would cost the state a lot of money and if that additional tax revenue were available there are other things I'd rather the money was spent on.

Presumably one of you is already working four days, could the other one compress their hours and do five days over four for a little while so you only need three days of childcare?

quite it would be childcare and work travel. £2k a month or actually just over, more like £2.1k.

We aren’t spending it now, childcare for DS wrap around and holiday care averages out at £450 a month at present. A second child’s nursery fees would be £1.1k a month.

Childcare is already subsidised. I'd be very loathe to see any more of my money going to people earning £80k when the NHS is falling apart, there's no social care for old people and someone on a full old age pension gets £628 a month.

I agree bluelady. Although it’s clear to see from my figures that without what we have currently many people wouldn’t be able to have any children at all. Even those with high incomes.

OP,

On MN you aren't allowed to feel hard up unless you have single figures not pounds in your bank account.

I would find just £350 left over after bills, mortgage etc a bit scary and also live in London.

I think it's great that you're thinking about how you'll fund your children; so many don't.

£350 for 2 adults doing professional jobs, a primary school aged child and a baby is not loads. Professional jobs need professional clothes, shoes, hair cuts and often make up if female. This alone can easily come to £50-100 pm each, primary school child will have a mufti day, school fete/child's party/school trip at least once a month call it a £5 ( conservative). Play dates can be free, but we were often asked to soft play/ swimming etc and there is often an expectation that a coffee out is part of the date as dcs get older they will frequently want a cake or similar too. Yes some of this can be avoided, but if you are both working it is pretty miserable not to go to the soft play/ buy a coffee when you do get some time off. FWIW when we had 2 under five childcare+ fares wiped out one of our salaries, so glad I stuck at it now though.

two new tyres at £450

Fuck me, what are you driving? An F1 car? A Boeing?

Professional jobs need professional clothes, shoes, hair cuts and often make up if female.

Absolutely agree. Make up, especially when I was working, wasn't optional to me. I was working on reception in the city...I look a mess without make up, actually ill! I'd have looked quite unprofessional without it.

primary school child will have a mufti day, school fete/child's party/school trip at least once a month call it a £5 ( conservative)

Definitely true. Not to mention endless dress up days. I've spent a small fortune on costumes for my two. Even buying cheap ones or making your own with cheap accessories ends up costing a far bit. My dc both did sponsored events recently..so that cost me a bit.

Childminder would probably shave a hundred or so a month off those 1.1k nursery fees for the baby OP, and this is before any extra savings you'll make from tax free childcare over vouchers. Depending on your earnings and commute you might also want to take the 3 months unpaid leave of ML too.

Yes Paul I think you are right. If we could ‘save’ £200 a month from my projected outgoings I’d feel much better about it

Wow. I'm lucky if I have £7.50.

Currently have £38.65 to last till Tuesday.

Everything is relative

Ah yes that old chestnut which means you must feel as much sympathy for the plight of an £80k household struggling for money for treats as you would a minimum wage household struggling for food.

Because the struggles are all relative you know.

Badly worded but it is shocking how much childcare can cost, london seemingly far more than other areas. I gave up work, £70 a day wasn’t enough and having a second baby would make us worse off.

Childcare is barely subsidised, a small tax relief on the cost/voucher. Investing in quality childcare to make it more affordable could pay dividends to the wider economy, something which has been studied and works in other countries. More parents working/setting up businesses and more disposable income flowing into the economy, plus more jobs in childcare.

We have a similar income with the same childcare vouchers. I went back to work when both kids were in school, two year gap, selected a job with an easier/cheaper commute, three days only, bought a cheaper home we didn’t renovate all at once. We don’t have many holidays and no loan, but never cut back. Wrap around childcare only. We save well over £1k per month after all spending, including replacing a boiler/new tyres etc. You’ve made some choices which are more expensive so it may be tight for a couple of years but you’ll be in a much better position after that. You just need to decide whether it’s worth the squeeze for those early years...and beyond to a lesser extent.

shasta actually, apart from the car (but the old one literally broke and was not fixable so we had little choice) it might seem like we’ve got overhead that we could have made cheaper but not really. As I said upthread we pay about half in mortgage what we would pay in rent so even though for instance we had no savings and had to get a loan out for the car, by ploughing it all into our home a few years ago we are about £900 a month better off than we would otherwise be in that respect so overall it’s still better if that makes sense?

We could move to a cheaper area but then our commute would go up by £400 a month EACH plus probably add parking onto that too. Moving to a completely different area would work for me possibly (but on a lower wage) but not DH’s job. Outside of London it just wouldn’t pay enough and so even if we bought a cheaper place (and lost all of our equity in the process) I can’t see how we’d be better off in the long term?

I think although I’ve had my arse handed to me a bit on here, this thread has been useful because I can see how we might turn that £350 into something closer to £600 a month with a few tweaks on childcare and I’d be a lot more comfortable with that.

We have a similar income ( a bit more) to the OP & have 2 children. I get where she is coming from. When I read threads about people spending ££££ on holidays or new cars I am agog as we couldn’t afford it. Of course it’s my choice to have kids & pay for childcare but living costs are so high these days. I’m sure life didn’t used to be so expensive. Plus our mortgage is lower then rents.

The 30 hours has made a difference but I still have to top up & pay for wrap around care & care through the holidays. Im lucky that my mum & mil help with childcare as I am Londoner (hence why I’ve not left) which makes a difference.

Not sure what the solution is OP.

I know how you feel OP, we are not in London, have one DC and somehow burn through over £4.5k/month. I realise this makes us very lucky compared with many many people but I wonder where it all goes. No extravagant lifestyle, no long haul holidays etc.

£4.5k a month net AND you're entitled to £385 a month free childcare, this really is one fucked up system we have in this country.

sall74

The government are not subsiding childcare because they are caring & generous. It’s to encourage parents largely mothers to work so the government can collect more tax.

I'm baffled how the OP can find enough 'stuff' to fritter away £350/month on, even allowing for birthday presents etc.

We get 30 free hours for DD1 and as we flex hours so kids do 3 days a week in nursery she's quite cheap now.

When she starts school wraparound will cost more than nursery (with some holiday care). So that's not always the answer.

I do know where you're coming from OP. We are on good income on paper too but it's annoying not to be able to afford an evening out (babysitter plus cinema plus a couple of drinks = best part of £100). Even if it's just occasional. We console ourselves it's a short ish period.

Two new tyres on a large MPV, mid range, fitted by Kwik Fit. I'll check the bill with them.

OP, you need the mythical MNet everlasting chicken and to learn to knit with lentils. Your budget allows £175pcm each for you and your dp. That's about a fiver a day.

So my expenditure on a £4.5k a month income:
Mortgage £850
Ctax £210
Utilities £150 (gas, electric, water and broadband)
Childcare £1350
Phones £60
Car payments £212
Insurances £190 (house, cars x2, dog and horse)
Horse £350
Food £400
Diesel £350

Other than the horse and dogs the rest are ‘compulsory’ there are 4 of us.
It’s not difficult to spend that sort of income! I know many people live off a considerably lower income but it’s easy to feel ‘skint’ like despite all the hard work to earn it, little is left at the end to holiday with or go out.

Fucking hell if you've got a horse you're not skint.

I'm baffled how the OP can find enough 'stuff' to fritter away £350/month on, even allowing for birthday presents etc

It's £90 a week for a family of four. It is hardly a stretch to imagine how it could be spent