To think the NHS "pay deal" is sugar-coated shite?

[SplitterBug]

The government and NHS employers are spinning this as a massive pay rise - having looked at the documents, I'm not so sure.

I'd implore all NHS workers affected to look at the details (on NHS Employers website) before deciding which way to vote. A lot of devil in the detail. A lot of questions still unanswered.

Firstly - the 6.5% over three years works out at 2.1% compounded per year - i.e. below inflation.

Secondly - the large % rises being quoted by the media for certain pay points completely ignore the fact that these staff would previously have had incremental pay rises anyway - e.g. a Band 5 nurse starting at 22128 would progress to 26970 under the new "pay deal" - stated to be a 21.88% rise over 3 years. But under the old increment system they'd have progressed with increased experience up to 25551 anyway. So the pay rise is actually only 5.55% (i.e. less than inflation).

Thirdly - the increments within bands will now require hoop-jumping, target-meeting. How challenging will this be?

Fourthly - the lower paid bands 1-3 are having a REDUCTION in their antisocial hours percentage pay premium which will claw back some of their rise.

(Not affected personally, but many people I know will be).

I think in respect of the private sector the public sector get a better deal on pay rises

I don't. I worked in the private sector from 2008-2016, and never had a pay raise of less than 3%. Public sector pay has been "frozen" (actually falling in real terms) for years, and this "pay bonanza" for the NHS might well actually amount to further real-terms cuts if inflation keeps heading the way it is.

The fact that anyone sees this story as a reason to moan about how NHS staff have it easy is testament to how successful the divide-and-conquer tactics of the Conservatives and the right-wing press have been in recent years.

All I was pointing out is that your husband s in a tiny minority. His experience of work in the NHS s a million miles from that of the majority. It's pretty irksome to read your parallel universe views on every NHS thread when the rest of us with NHS experience know how far from reality they are.

But isn’t it better than NOTHING..which is want many of us will get?!

What not want

I read this earlier, the pay rises for the bottom of the bands seem brilliant (as someone who is rock bottom of band 5 , I am impressed!)

www.nhspay.org/pay-calculator

NHS staff deserve more.
They are not paid well enough for their skills and those saying, "get a better job", they can - in private health care. Then who will look after those who cannot afford private health care?
Nurse bursaries have stopped. Less nurses and doctors are training. A local Uni to me is not running a nursing degree this Sept as not enough applicants.
Oh, and btw, I work in General Practice land where we still have the 1% pay cap... no pay rise here but I still stand with my NHS colleagues.

It is better than nothing. And I’ll happily take it over nothing. But it might not be enough to stop the exodus of staff. And this is the only point that we can say that this pay rise isn’t what it’s being sold as and maybe make a difference to it.

Two years down the line when we don’t have enough HCAs to provide basic care on the wards is going to be too late.

Pay is by no means the only issue, but it isn’t helping.

You don’t actually come across as very nice Haribo. My husband FWIW chose his speciality in the public sector very well and is extremely well paid. Huge, big money demand in the private sector. All the rest of it too, so?

He’s a very small minority. The huge majority aren’t in that position, which is why I didn’t raise it. To raise it would just come across as smug and really quite awful and trashy. Especially when the public sector is losing real talent hand over fist. Due to rubbish rates of pay in comparison to the private sector, for actual skilled jobs.

I’m not sure what your exact point is, as it’s totally not relevant to most who work in the nhs. You just come across as ‘richer than youuu’. Yoy don’t sound like you are making any point, just gloating. Not nice. Really not nice.

The consultants I work with all sound like Haribo's DH. And none of them are sleazy or money grabbing. I guess it really does come down to which speciality you choose.

It's pointless trying to have a rational discussion with you, Haribo. Your husband is part of a select group, some of whom earn more than the prime minister. A very tiny group. Some of his colleagues work in A&E, doing massively stressful long shifts with no scope for private work. I doubt they would agree with you.

The vast majority of people working in patient facing roles are overworked, poorly remunerated and very stressed which is why there is a high attrition rate. You can fantasise all you like, you're not convincing anyone.

This is not a particularly good deal for anyone who is sitting at the top of their pay band but for anyone else it works out as quite a big percentage increase. I have just started at the bottom of a banding and under current proposals would see an increase of 18% over 3 years. Some pay points see 20% plus. The eventual plan if you look at the numbers is that in 3 years bandings 1-4 would all be paid the same salary and band 5 upwards would only have 3 increments. Not sure what I think of this but the current system with its overlaps within gradings is a bit odd. I have in the past found myself earning less than staff I was managing due to me being bottom of a grade and them being top of the grade below(if that makes sense!)

I stated a fact, opinionated. It's not advisable to tell people what they "should of said" when they said precisely what they meant. it was factually incorrect the nhs is not hemorrhaging staff it is gaining staff.. ( i hope you are a troll and do not really work in the nhs as your stupidity is worrying)

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/23/nhs-england-recruitment-crisis-nursing-vacancies

Would you agree with the fact that it’s haemoraging frontline staff such as nurses and HCAs though? Or are you denying that we have a recruitment and retention issue at all?

I work in the NHS for a relatively good salary and I think this is a crap deal on a wider scale than just the numbers on the scale

I can't get too exercised though by some woman banging on about her husband's fabulousness. What are you...a surrendered wife ? Have you any idea how you come across haribo ? (clue: like a twat)

'The NHS in England employs just over 1 million full-time equivalent (FTE) staff (not including those working in general practice). This number has been increasing at about 0.5 per cent on average per year over the past seven years.

Since 2010 there has been an increase in the number of staff in all groups except managers and backroom support staff.

The number of nursing staff has increased by 1.8 per cent from 281,064 FTEs in 2010 to 286,020 FTEs in 2017'
www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-staffing-numbers

Would you agree with the fact that it’s haemoraging frontline staff such as nurses and HCAs though? Or are you denying that we have a recruitment and retention issue at all? no only group that has fallen is managers unless the kingsfund is wrong all im saying the nhs is not losing staff hint staff shortage is not the same as losing staff as an aging population means more need for nhs staff.

Why is every clinical area chronically understaffed then ? Answer that with your "statistics"

And read the Guardian article that was provided.

The simple fact if that NHS staff, at least medical staff are voting with their feet, due to a combination of the poor quality of working life combined with poor pay and therefore people emigrating to Aus, NZ, Canada etc.

Yep.

This, not anyone else's pay rise or freeze or the level of sympathy anyone might feel is the salient point here. And also just as significant, NHS staff choosing to remain in the UK but leave and do agency instead. This is massively expensive for the NHS. We have to do something. We have to do it regardless of how shit anyone else's employer might be. Like it or not.

I'msosceptical why don't you come over here then? I'm sure we would be glad to have you!

I should qualify my last statement with "every clinical area that I visit "

Why is every clinical area chronically understaffed then ? Answer that with your "statistics"

i never said they were not

Then ehat is ypur point ? You wish to deny the reality of understaffing ?

It starts with chronic underfunding. The largest resource required by far by the NHS is staff. I can do the math.