To think the NHS "pay deal" is sugar-coated shite?

[SplitterBug]

The government and NHS employers are spinning this as a massive pay rise - having looked at the documents, I'm not so sure.

I'd implore all NHS workers affected to look at the details (on NHS Employers website) before deciding which way to vote. A lot of devil in the detail. A lot of questions still unanswered.

Firstly - the 6.5% over three years works out at 2.1% compounded per year - i.e. below inflation.

Secondly - the large % rises being quoted by the media for certain pay points completely ignore the fact that these staff would previously have had incremental pay rises anyway - e.g. a Band 5 nurse starting at 22128 would progress to 26970 under the new "pay deal" - stated to be a 21.88% rise over 3 years. But under the old increment system they'd have progressed with increased experience up to 25551 anyway. So the pay rise is actually only 5.55% (i.e. less than inflation).

Thirdly - the increments within bands will now require hoop-jumping, target-meeting. How challenging will this be?

Fourthly - the lower paid bands 1-3 are having a REDUCTION in their antisocial hours percentage pay premium which will claw back some of their rise.

(Not affected personally, but many people I know will be).

It's still a pay rise! I'll take it!! I've reached the top of my band so haven't had one for years!

Bumpowder

What about those people who have been in the nhs for 15+ years, who signed up when pay was better? Before seven years of no pay rises. Are they allowed to moan? Because my pay was certainly relatively better 15 years ago than it was when I left last year.

And if I was in another public sector I’d be wanting nhs workers to get the best deal possible because any deal will pave the way for easier negotiations for other public sector workers. You’d have to be pretty dim to not realise that.

The pay rise is 6% over 3 years, that’s less than the rate of inflation for this year. Since 2010 nurses have had a pay cut if 14% so it doesn’t go anywhere near giving a real pay rise

Then people will wonder why there care is as it is

Because nurses can’t afford to work for the NHS in real terms or make subsidies

Thank you pride!

@Toddlerteaplease if you are at the top of your band I suggest you look into it a bit more before you get excited.

I don't work in the NHS but have friends and acquaintances that do or have done.

Sympathy re the pay rise as this is still an effective pay cut, although as pointed out elsewhere, better than other public employees.

The simple fact if that NHS staff, at least medical staff are voting with their feet, due to a combination of the poor quality of working life combined with poor pay and therefore people emigrating to Aus, NZ, Canada etc. There is no chance of any immigration coming down post Brexit as non resident medical staff will take the poor pay to get the UK visa and can't blame them

I have two mates who left the NHS and are living in NZ. Fab work life balance and great pay. Had a holiday with them and they look so much better health wise and much happier, but a loss to the NHS

How does this work in terms of increments? Do they still apply? I am at the bottom of my band, so in three years will I receive both the incremental pay rise and the percentage rise as we usually do? If that is the case, Will I be top of my band in three years? I haven't had time to look in to this and the calculators are telling me different....

Wow!! I know nurses in uk dont get paid as well as nurses in OZ but there are NO nurse jobs in OZ, trust me I’d take an NHS nurse job tomorrow if I could, imagine slogging through 3 years of a degree, owing £20k plus in fees and you can’t even get a foot in the door, the only jobs here are part time, casual, pool, there is nothing, I sympathise but I’m also completely envious, PS any nurses thinking of coming to OZ, that boat sailed away years ago, don’t even think about it, nurses get decent wages compared to UK but nothing decent enough to even consider attempting to get on the property ladder or decent holidays!!

Historically, the reason increments were put in place for the public sector was the belief that it took many years to get really good at the job, and therefore you weren't paid the rate for the job when you started, you had to work up to it over a number of years..

Looks like the increments are going, fusty. Not sure about the higher bands, but for 2 and 3 at least the top of the band get 6.5% over 3 years and over those three years all the lower spine points will receive pay rises that will bring them up to the same figure.

It's a below inflation pay rise, ie a real terms pay cut. It's a massive pile of turd. This is after years of real terms pay cuts.

The media's reporting of it as a pay 'rise' is very misleading.

It also does not apply to any doctor or dentists, who are set to get f all.

The hilarious thing or not so hilarious thing about it. Is if these public sector jobs are so rosy. Then why is there a real manning crisis in the NHS, education, MOD, etc?

Maybe because morale is at an all time low, pensions and pay have been decimated. Then the facts are the best can earn a whole lot more in the private sector, so that’s what they do. Even people lower down pay scales can earn more by leaving public service.

Which is why you’ll find so much money is being spent on private staffing companies or contractors. It’s a joke.

Mean while people all turn on each other and people in some of the most important jobs in the country get loads of abuse.

This has been spun more than my washing.

So from what I see now is either two scenarios. A staff nurse starting out now will eventually paid around 26k in financial year 20/21, at which point you will be paid the same as a newly qualified? How does experience get rewarded?

Experience leaves and goes somewhere they are rewarded properly and valued as a good worker.

www.nhspay.org/what-does-the-deal-mean-for-me/

What they are basically doing is telling us we will be 21% better off (as in my case) but actually when you factor in the increments you would have got, the reality is it is about 9% and I'm one if the lucky ones at the bottom of my band.

haribo yes doctors may be well paid at the senior end, but that is no help to junior doctors who need to pay bills, on top of professional registration fees, exam fees, courses, indemnity etc out of their own pocket.

The fact that the pay is woeful compared to abroad, and the working conditions poor, explains why so many junior doctors are leaving the country. As it costs well over £100,000 to train each doctor, this has a huge cost attached to it.

Haribols my DH clearly went into the wrong specialty then. Consultant for 10 years, works 7.30 - 7pm most days, 1:5 weekends (actually in hospital not just in call),1:7 weeknights on calls, constant pressure from management to do more, makes 10% of NHS salary in private (if that).

Please don’t assume all consultants are on a good thing. I actually worry my DH is working himself to death, and most of the consultants I know have similar working patterns to him.

I've worked in the NHS for 21 years and today I handed my notice in. I am earning £8k less today as I was when I was when i was newly qualified in 2003. I've found myself a nice little private sector job with a better pension, better pay and more holidays. I work in an area where there is a national shortage of staff with 25% of vacancies empty. It's going to get worse...

Oh and the private sector that have moved to is going to be bidding for NHS services. Bye bye NHS...

How can you compare your sleazy money grabbing consultant husband to nurses and lower paid HCP who are in the building while your DH is at home or going off to do private work which he wouldn’t be able to do without the NHS funding his professional status and training him in the first place.

Most NHS employees are worked to the bone and it is clinically unsafe. They are doing one of the most important jobs struggling to pay their mortgage. Obviously not the privalidged consultants who don’t have anything acute in their job plan

Haribo, I for one am getting a little tired of you telling us about how things are perfectly fine in the NHS based on one of its highest paid staff members who doesn't work antisocial hours and whose jib appears to carry no stress.

Do you realise how atypical your consultant husband is? And is he so out of touch that he fails to educate you about his colleagues' work in different specialties? If he was an A&E consultant you'd be humming a different tune.

The NHS spends around 3.7billion per annum on agency staff from locums, nurses, midwives etc with up to 50% going to the agencies. Why do medical staff opt into the agency system? Because (especially parents with families) they can choose what suits them and get paid marginally better after the agency take. Could the well-paid number crunchers and organisers in the NHS take hold of this and sort schedules out in these days of IT? Could they have decided to continue to allow nursing bursaries to encourage more students into the profession?