To think most "gifted" children are from affluent backgrounds?

[Notapushymum1]

I was reading about Alma Deutscher, a child prodigy who started composing at age 6 and had her first opera performed at age 9. She is a child prodigy who is home schooled, her parents are scholars with interest in music, she had the best teachers from age 3 and according to Wikipedia:
^^
Professor Gjerdingen recommended to Deutscher's parents the renowned Swiss improvisor Rudolf Lutz, who then connected them with the Swiss musician Tobias Cramm.[51] Gjerdingen sent exercises and commented on technical aspects of Alma’s composition, while Alma had lessons in improvisation from Cramm via Skype, with the pair using the pedagogical method of the eighteenth century Italian partimenti, instructional bass lines used for the teaching of harmony, counterpoint and improvisation.[52] Alma quickly became fluent in the music syntax of eighteenth century music

She spends 5 hours a day on music lessons from "Renowned violin and piano teachers at Yehudi Menuhin music school".

AIBU to think that most kids will become "prodigies" with such input?

That's really interesting gilly. I have a friend who is a professional musician who says similar - he reckons that sometimes trauma/abuse can have the same kind of effect (children using music as an escape).

gilly - when you said earlier in the thread that you were a typical working class family, I didn’t realise your DH is a renowned musician.

Not really typical.

whiskyowl
I find that dd friends are all a bit weird, I don't mean that in a nasty way they are just a bit different. It's hard to explain, but when you see them they look like stepford kids, yet they aren't and have individual personalities and quirks like any other person.

Taffeta
I think in some respects it's typical, certainly from an income pov.
I work pt in a call centre, our other dc although one is practically married now are ds1 mortgage advisor, ds2 call centre agent.
Dh is only renowned in his own very narrow style of Jazz, not a famous household name.
If you were a fan/into the style you'd know him, otherwise you wouldn't.
My dh started playing at 16 and went to a normal music college at 18, he too didn't receive many lessons beforehand and certainly nothing more than local county provision.

gilly - sorry I don’t mean to pick on you. It’s just that although you may have lower incomes, you are not exactly typical of low income working class as per the Guardian article I keep banging on about. You have experience as a family of music, and therefore are attuned to the opportunities available.

Not saying there is anything wrong with this, at all btw.

I guess just trying to reiterate how impossible it is for those in a Prof Green type scenario to have any potential recognised and nurtured.

Have you read the book Outliers? It might answer some of this. It's really interesting.

I guess just trying to reiterate how impossible it is for those in a Prof Green type scenario to have any potential recognised and nurtured.

As has no doubt been stated here already, there is not one single aspect of your existence which determines your life chances more than how much money your parents have.

I think people are under the impression that all well-known musicians must earn a fortune. They don't necessarily. I have a friend in a household name/well-known band who have headlined Glasto, and while he certainly does OK, he really isn't rolling in it. Partly it depends on how things like rights are set up - even though some of the lines of music that he has authored as part of the band form some of their most 'featured' work when it comes to use on ads, TV programmes etc. he doesn't have official songwriting credit, so he doesn't earn money when it is played. I think it would be perfectly possible for a really great jazz musician to earn an undeservedly poor wage in spite of amazing creativity

Certainly all the children I know in orchestra with my DD either have musical parents (either working in music now - agreed often low incomes - or play/played to fairly high levels themselves ) or are middle class.

Music for children these days seems to be all about £££ or musical knowledge of parents.

Taffeta

It's ok, I didn't feel picked on and I agree entirely.
There were lots of dc who dd played with at county level who would be just as capable of passing the audition, but their families either didn't want to look at it, or were completely unaware.
We knew from an early age that dd was into music and we had the contacts to help with whatever we needed at the time.
Lots of free resources, discounted lessons or free from dh.
Musical instruments whenever she needed them, not bought new or for her to keep, just to borrow. It's still more than a lot can give their dc though.
I was a sahm so had all the time in the world to ferry her around and dedicate any amount of hours to supporting her.
We tell her all the time how lucky she is, and I know that the position we are in has given her lots of opportunities.

A life in music isn't what I would have encouraged had she not wanted it.
I keep telling her she'll never have any money, but she reckons she'll be very rich from performing in all the major opera houses of the world. What can you say to this, apart from good luck, send me some tickets?

KrisMulready Wed 21-Mar-18 14:23:55 As has no doubt been stated here already, there is not one single aspect of your existence which determines your life chances more than how much money your parents have

Being born blind?
Being born to parents who don't give a fuck about you?
Being born incredibly intelligent vs. incredibly thick?

To be honest that line about privilege is just naive / jealousy.

Plenty of people transcend their roots and live better lives than their parents, and plenty of people who were born into money end up miserable or dead before their time.

What your saying basically rubbishes the efforts made by both advantaged and disadvantaged people to succeed and places everything in the hands of fate, it's disempowering rubbish

Not surprised at yet another class-bashing thread on left wing mumsnet however

What your saying basically rubbishes the efforts made by both advantaged and disadvantaged people to succeed and places everything in the hands of fate, it's disempowering rubbish

Bullshit. Wilfully ignorant bullshit.

Yes, there are examples of those who have transcended their roots, but if you are born to parents with means you will have better living conditions (for example, your parents can afford to put the heating on for longer, or get the plumbing fixed, or treat the house for damp), better access to healthcare, better educational and leisure opportunities, more opportunity to pursue your interests. You will live in a better area - e.g. more free from crime and antisocial behaviour - than those without means, you will have better access to technology which improves quality of life, you will be more likely to enter further or higher education.

To suggest otherwise takes deliberate blindness.

You're absolutely right, of course, that 'rags to riches' stories are not the norm, otherwise they wouldn't arouse so much interest and admiration.

I think nature and nurture play a part. To succeed at music/sport or whatever you have to have some talent obviously. But a working class child with musical talent is far more likely to go on to X Factor or 'Britain's Got Talent' and a very few will succeed in becoming a pop star. Very few would even think of excelling at the piano or violin.

I think bright kids can excel if the right support is around them - whether they are 'gifted' or not is always open to some debate. I know a girl with a full bursary to a private school who is super bright - hence the fees being funded - but whose mum is a single (her dad's dead) full time nurse. She was at a primary school which recognised her potential though.

Not all gifted children are from affluent backgrounds, far from it, but the opportunities afforded to them will be greater if their parents have the weath and connections like little Alma. Schools have gifted and talented coordinators to recognise and try and get those children on enrichment programmes to help further their interests and abilities. Many unis offer summer schools specifically aimed at children from less affluent backgrounds and from areas where less children get to attend uni.

There’s often a driver, and it helps if they have money and connections.

I listen to Desert Island Discs and occasionally you get a really interesting back story. Where the child has overcome poverty, or neglect, and found a driver within themselves, a teacher, or family.

There is a genuine grit that comes across.

One side of DH's family have been in the music industry for several generations and many are well-known names. Their musical talent is incredible as a whole and the lines are (I feel) quite blurred between innate talent and growing up with Led Zeppelin members coming to supper, so I can't tell what the youngest generation would have done with their musical talent had the family not already been connected.

Mozart would still have been a prodigy whatever happened to him. But he wouldn’t have been ‘Mozart’ without Leopold.

A recent study put intelligence at between 60and 80 per cent heritability. That has put the cat among the pigeons.

Teacher22, how do you know how Mozart would turn up if he was not groomed to become a "music prodigy" from birth by his father?

I think super smart kids absolutely exist across all backgrounds and with the right teachers and parents they'll be supported and will exceed. If they enjoy learning then so much the better.

For the vast majority of the rest of us, if you want them to out perform their peers then either you put in the money or you put in the hours yourself.

I haven't either money or time, and neither are showing signs of greatness so mine won't be conducting any operas but they're loved and fed and kind souls so I'll settle for that

A recent study put intelligence at between 60and 80 per cent heritability. That has put the cat among the pigeons.

Pretty much the same as height www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-much-of-human-height/ and weight academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/87/2/398/4633289 So not a very effective cat :)

What a fascinating thread. So much food for thought. I think the 10,000 hours concept from the outliers is very important for most endeavours. Especially sport and music. And yes the child's willingness to apply themself is critical. The "pushy parent" model only goes so far.

Have you read Bounce?

User, I read that book and liked it very much.

Just downloaded Outliers on my kindle. Despite the fact that this kind of books makes me feel like I should be pushing my kids. I am usually quite laid back and never insist on revision/music practice. Maybe I should be doing more...

I think 'gifted' sounds like the type of thing a performance parent would say to describe their child. It's clever or intelligent surely? It's the same as the pretentious 'crafted' not made.