Surely it is not ok to say this..?

[CristinaYang]

I was out with a large group of work colleagues on Friday night. They all seem to be normal, nice people.

We were talking about places in Europe we had visited, and our favourite places. I said my favourite city so far was Berlin. I absolutely loved Berlin. The people were so friendly and welcoming and, I mentioned, that on the walking tours we did I had admired how they didn’t shy away from Germany’s role in the war. I liked the way the dealt with it in terms of their monuments and the way tour guides spoke etc. Granted I was only there a couple of days and I certainly wouldn’t claim to be any kind of expert but I felt it was sensitively and honestly spoken about but there were no attempts at denial or justification. This is a summary of the conversation, a few people chipped in and agreed with me etc.

Anyway one woman then pipes up “I’m sorry, is anyone else just not ok with Germans, even now?!” I was aghast and thought oh dear that’s awkward. I was then even more aghast by the people that nodded in agreement, made comments about relatives killed in concentration camps and how they still “feel weird”, “can’t warm to them” etc.

But how can they blame Germans for that these days? It’s an entirely different generation of people and things have moved on. You can’t blame individuals for it. I realise that may be simplistic but as I said I’m no expert and I don’t want to spout off about things I don’t fully understand.

Drink was taken (not by me, i wasn’t drinking) but no one seemed to be out and out hammered.

Is this a secretly commonly held view these days? I can’t imagine that it is...

The support or collusion of the German population at the time is irrelevant. The subsequent generations aren't to blame.

If your father murdered someone would you feel it fair that you were then sneered at and vilified for the rest of your life?

kerala I do get that it's a little different though. People kind of see it like a group atrocity - it happened in Germany because of some kind of specific German mentality that lives on in subsequent generations.

Not saying that that is right, but I don't think it's exactly the same thing.

It's not irrelevant. The Germans know that, they understand that if subsequent generations don't admit and discuss and examine their role as a collective people then the collusion is ongoing.
It's an important truth in germany, so if you think its irrelevant, take it up there.

SpringNow - I believe that poster may be referring to the disgraceful fact that most of those who participated actively in the holocaust - actual war criminals - were not only never punished, but actually given plum jobs after the war ended, in Germany, in wider Europe, and especially in America. The US space programme and military weapons programmes were full of Nazi scientists (Operation Paperclip) and it went up to the highest levels of diplomacy - look up the past of Kurt Waldheim, former Seg Gen of the UN. Disgraceful.

whisky - thanks - I'm aware of that but that's not a huge number is it?

also that kind of corruption exists everywhere, and exists now, and it wouldn't be the fault of any German or a reason to dislike all Germans.

If you asked me, would i like to meet Ivana Trump? Hell no, she supports her dad, but I'm not going to sit here and say "I hate all Americans because Trump". And Trump is now. Hating a nation because of something that happened 70 years ago just baffles me.

Apologies thisisafirststep that was a typing error.

I am British / German, born and schooled in Germany. I am not offended by what the OP's colleague allegedly said. The colleague sounds like an uneducated person and a bit simple minded. There are many uneducated, simple minded people (USMP), both here in the UK and in Germany alike. They fear what they don't know and are grumpy enough to tar a whole population group with the same brush. I suppose they can't help it but the irony is that USMP would be the most likely to go along with a fascist, totalitarian regime.

Why?

Because fascist totalitarian regimes big up USMP, telling them they are more special and worthy than other population groups, which must feel nice for USMP as they get to feel special and part of something bigger. The OP's colleague is prejudiced against Germans, equally the Jewish people were vilified all over Europe throughout the middles ages. They were persecuted and hated by many over many hundreds of years all over Europe who felt "weird” and “couldn't warm to them”. . Same mindset as the OP's colleague.

Gullible people haven't got the ability to think critically and challenge prejudice and bigotry (as seen on this thread and as seen with some of the Brexit narrative) so more likely to go along with the status quo, however dangerous and cruel it may be.

I'd like to recommend reading The Wave by Todd Strasser; it's about a US high school experiment exploring how and why people go along with totalitarian systems. It's an interesting viewpoint on why many Germans went along with the atrocities of the Nazis. www.amazon.co.uk/Wave-Laurel-Leaf-contemporary-fiction/dp/0440993717?tag=mumsnetforum-21

From the blurb:
The powerful forces of group pressure that pervaded many historic movements such as Nazism are recreated in the classroom when history teacher Burt Ross introduces a "new" system to his students. And before long "The Wave," with its rules of "strength through discipline, community, and action," sweeps from the classroom through the entire school. And as most of the students join the movement, Laurie Saunders and David Collins recognize the frightening momentum of "The Wave" and realize they must stop it before it's too late.

Some people love nothing better than hating others. It's a real shame but people like this exist anywhere in the world. There are open minded and warm people and closed off, fearful people. Let's spread the love a little in the hope that we make a positive difference in the world. It's so easy to judge but it's actually quite easy and much more fun and rewarding to be welcoming and friendly too.

That's glossing over the huge amount of collusion, and how do you think the Nazis gained power in the first place?

Well done for missing the point entirely.

springnow - it wasn't corruption. It was an official programme. They basically just decided it was impossible to hold those who were responsible to account, and that they had skills that could be utilised. Given that this is comparatively recent history, can you see why those who profited from the Nazi regime and got away with it, being given subsequent employment in high office, might draw the anger of those who lost relations and their entire family wealth in the war? There is a very real injustice there.

It is not a reason to dislike all Germans, by any means. I have not at any point argued that such a view is remotely reasonable, because I don't believe it is. However, the existence of anti-German xenophobia is not a reason for not facing up to what actually happened.

@Bundlesmads no I’m not being missleading at all, those are from actual history books I studied when taking history.

While your family may have had a good time in the camps here mine didn’t, my Austrian non Jewish great grandfather didn’t have a good time, he left weak and was ill for the rest of his life after the work and questioning he was put through. While everyone’s experiences are different we can’t dismiss those that did suffer.

Like I said having family in UK and German camps I’ve heard stories from both and it shows both sides had hideous sides to them.

whisky "it wasn't corruption. It was an official programme."

to me, that IS corruption. and yes it is a real injustice.

but it doesn't warrant the OP colleague saying "ooh I don't like Germans...."

whisky "However, the existence of anti-German xenophobia is not a reason for not facing up to what actually happened."

of course not. I don't think anyone is refusing to face up to what happened.

what we are saying is it's got bugger all to do with a random person who didn't participate or collude. A child who benefitted - yes, I can see why you'd want that child to reject the parent and reject the money.

but again, this doesn't get near "I don't like Germans".

I do think it's too simplistic to say that there wasn't major collusion in Germany or that all collusion was forced, but I see it as a humanity problem, rather than a German one. The events in Germany in WW2 took place then and there because of a unique set of conditions, but I think it's naïve to think that there was something inherent in German people rather than just something inherent in people.

As for, 'so it doesn't happen again', organised and deliberate genocide has taken place several times since the end of WW2. As a nation, we don't vilify those people and nations in the same way or to the same extent because it's not so close to home, but this sort of organised genocide is certainly far from something that only German people would do.

I have noticed that in some places that were occupied during WW2 there is a lasting dislike of Germans (there would be people still around who remembered occupation of course). I imagine it will gradually stop.

No I don't think that is a normal or typical line of thought for most run of the mill Brits. To me, probably the woman who started that line may not like you (it was a bit of a slap-down) and she was spurting any old bollocks to close down your enthusiastic summise of Berlin. Alternatively, she's a queen bee type surrounded by a load of half-pissed nodding donkeys. She could have been coming out with any old shite and people would agree.
You may want to casually ask her in the cold light of day at work, if she really meant what she said in her 'German rant' when she was half-cut.......see how she reacts - ha ha!!!!

Saveforthat I'm not sure what you're getting at there...? Please explain.

Given that this is comparatively recent history, can you see why those who profited from the Nazi regime and got away with it, being given subsequent employment in high office, might draw the anger of those who lost relations and their entire family wealth in the war? There is a very real injustice there.

Definitely crappy that some people who are Nazi assholes got away with it, I totally agree but, think about it whisky , on the whole Germany has dealt and is still dealing in depth with this period in its history and I cannot think of any other country that has on the whole fessed up and confronted its ugly past. Also, after WW1 Germany was totally destroyed which provided THE breeding ground for extremism, paving the way for Hitler to succeed. After the atrocities of WWII the Allies quite rightly agreed that a modern Germany with a healthy economy was more important for a peaceful and stable Europe and world even if that meant that some but by all means not the majority of 'real' Nazis got away with their inhumanity in order to run bits of the country's economy.

Not to digress into whataboutary but how do we feel about our forefathers instigating the Partition in India? Am I to blame or posters on here? Surely not. Should Pakistanis and Indians hate us today for the loss of life and the destruction of communities then?

hosta yes, it is absolutely not something peculiar to the Germans.

Look at all the anti-Muslim feeling since September 11th. Most people would never have voiced those kinds of feelings out loud before that. Since then, it's become a free for all. We have political parties whose main agenda is basically 'not liking Muslims'. All it takes is one or two powerful people to start an agenda and a lot of people will start thinking the same thing.

It's sad to say, but a great number of people are absolute sheep. I think for that reason, it's always a good idea to analyse why we say and do the things we do.

My ex husband and father of my children was born in Germany to a German mother and an English father. The father was in the army. The ex husband had dual citizenship. I'm lucky I didn't take up this view.
Some people are so shallow

I can’t remember the poster- sorry.
But to claim internment camps were a picnic? Is a ridiculous comment.
I have postcards sent from my Grandmother begging for supplies from home to help clothe and feed my Mother!
If it wasn’t for the Red Cross parcels they’d be dead!
My closest female blood line was emotionally wiped out during the war. The fear never left them...

Yet, zero compensation from the German government.

Prejudiced. Not uninformed.
user being prejudiced is being uninformed. Prejudice is not objective it's narrow minded bigotry.

I'd loved to have overheard that conversation.....might have had to remind her of all the lovely things the British have done around the world throughout history. Starting with my own beautiful country, Ireland.

plasticbirdhouse - I agree about the reckoning that modern Germany has taken. I do think they have adopted a very serious and responsible attitude to this history, not just in terms of individual actions but in terms of the cultural causes. In Austria, that is far less the case.

I do think there are collective and cultural harms as well as individual ones. It's not as simple as saying "individual modern, young Germans are not to blame". On the one hand, of course they aren't! Only a xenophobe would want to inflict the sins of their (grand)fathers upon them, and there would be a degree of hypocrisy in so doing, given that few Western governments have anything approaching clean hands when it comes to the blood-soaked history of war, colonialism, suppression.

On the other, I think that there is a need for that collective reckoning to happen, and to keep happening - collective guilt is not an event, it does not go away in 2 minutes after an apology like the minor wrongdoing of a naughty child. It is a process that takes decades and decades and will continue for decades more. Part of that reckoning is looking at what happened after the war and making restitution where possible. On that note, I absolutely empathise with the frustration of Indians and Pakistanis who are frustrated by the blithe ignorance many modern Brits have of the wrongdoing their country enacted there, and in other parts of the world.

I was about to say that when I encountered the usual anti-English bigotry from my relatives in Ireland last year, I told them that we don't hold a grievance against the Germans. I've got a number of German friends and we supported Germany in the last World Cup final. This was greeted with a sneer. I don't think dragging up British history, or any other for that matter, is acceptable to a current generation.

Wow. What a ridiculous thing to say!

Then again, I have had Indian men and women blaming me personally and "all my family" for the British colonisation of India in the nineteenth century!

As PP said upthread, some people are only taught in black-and-white and can be very simple minded.