...To Think Free Speech is Dead in the UK

[RockyBayEve]

After 3 free speech advocates American Brittany Pettibone, her Austrian boyfriend and Canadian journalist Lauren Southern are detained by UK border force, barred from speaking at Speakers Corner, deported or barred entry.

What do people reckon it would be like to be a black student on a campus that regularly invites people there specifically to preach that they are inferior, that they shouldn't be there, that they should all be sent back to some unspecified "other place"? Would it make you feel very safe? Would it make you feel you could safely go around expressing your opinions? Or is that freedom only to be there for certain people?

The point she was making was that it started as one thing, that was somewhat more appealing to the masses, before it gradually evolved into the horror of the holocaust

This. Exactly. The Holocaust didn't just happen.

well if that is what you meant, Kala.....then fine...

Corythatwas, I think if I were a black student on a campus like that I would feel angry and scared.
Which universities are doing this?

There are some people who are inspired by the online Muslim hate preachers out there as well as what they hear from some Muslim clerics in the UK. Their anger is fuelled by such people They go out and commit terrible atrocities.

There are also people who are inspired by the online Far right hate preaches they hear - as well as those who they hear in the UK. Their anger is fuelled by such people.They go out and commit terrible atrocities.

2 sides of the same coin. I don't know how you balance freedom of speech with the concern that people can be radicalised or prompted to take out their anger by preachers of hate. And how is a hate preacher defined?

I can think of a few people who I think preach hate and I can see how they fuel someone's anger. Those people would say they are just expressing their view - which they are.

I would say that increased rhetoric and a generalised stirring up of sentiment against certain groups by the media and online (with only negative news, negative stories being heard) as well as echo chambers does play a part in such things.

you would say that, but what's the evidence of the link? Furthermore, as many people have already asked, where between the frothing breitbart crowd and Douglas Murray do we draw the line? I have stated that the point is inciting violence, but others are happy for anyone who vaguely mentions brown people to be gagged.

throttling free speech leads to a very dangerous place.

I myself have had abuse about my family being multiracial from “alt right” fans. It’s not a joke, these people genuinely think people of colour are inferior. It needs to stop, and soon.

I have stated that the point is inciting violence, but others are happy for anyone who vaguely mentions brown people to be gagged

Do you think that constantly hearing only negative things about a group, having misleading surveys and headlines about a group can lead to a negative perception and an increase in anger towards that group - especially from people who need a target for their anger?

throttling free speech leads to a very dangerous place

What if the free speech is when one prominent group has a large platform?

I think putting yourself into someone else's shoes is a useful thing to do. Or even just listening to other groups of people.

There are many differrent groups of people who are very worried at the moment about how the UK is changing.

They are a pair of muppets who filmed themselves performing criminal acts.

If something is true, then it's not libellous or slanderous.

Misrepresenting video footage is lying. Lying is wrong.

Assaulting people is wrong.

Harrassing people is wrong.

Libelling people is wrong.

Slandering people is wrong.

Encouraging others to do the same is wrong.

Doing all this because of race or creed is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Attempting to pervert the course of justice in a sexual assault case

Assaulting someone

'Identifying' the wrong people as sex offenders, racially abusing them on video and subjecting them to harrassment from other Britain First 'activists' after the video was uploaded and watched

Harrassing Muslims who were helping at Grenfell Tower

The Britain First Facebook page was taken down as it incited racial hatred.

There have been numerous travel bans on people coming into the UK.

From 2008

From 2015

From 2012

Free speech should not be hate speech and nor should it be used to incite further hate speech or violence.

"Corythatwas, I think if I were a black student on a campus like that I would feel angry and scared.
Which universities are doing this?"

I am not saying they are, as yet. Not in this country. But they are in the US, and British universities are increasingly coming under pressure not to "suppress free speech". Which always seems to mean far right wing speech, not e.g. radical Islam.

At the same time, of course, as university staff are now supposed to report students "at the risk of radicalisation". And that always seems to mean Islam, not alt-right.

This is nothing new though is it? We’ve been banning people with similar views (or different but similarly divise views) for a long time.

In the US you get people like the Phelps family who would stage vile and wildly offensive protests at the funerals of fallen members of the armed forces, and that was okay because Free Speech, whereas we told them they weren’t welcome in the country. Not many tears were shed.

Violette I suspect you'd have had as much hassle in communist USSR as you have from alt right.

For me, there's two different issues here. The right of residents or citizens of this country to express their views, opinions and experiences. This is very valid and important. I agree with others that you should be able to hear dissenting voices and debate with them. How do you know you're on the 'right' side if you have no idea about the alternatives.

Then there's right for people to come travel into the country specifically to stir up shit. Which it looks like these people were travelling for, and have prior experience of in other countries. I think we would do well to listen to each other more rather than just getting outside voices to try and drown each other out.

What do people reckon it would be like to be a black student on a campus that regularly invites people there specifically to preach that they are inferior, that they shouldn't be there, that they should all be sent back to some unspecified "other place"? Would it make you feel very safe? Would it make you feel you could safely go around expressing your opinions? Or is that freedom only to be there for certain people?

As I said, I am black american, and I have a university degree. I haven't seen outright racists being invited to campuses. I don't know what I have thought, but you have to give me an example. What precisely are people saying that should be banned?

Do you think that constantly hearing only negative things about a group, having misleading surveys and headlines about a group can lead to a negative perception and an increase in anger towards that group - especially from people who need a target for their anger?

I live in London. I am never in a position where I constantly hear only negative things about one group. In fact, negative views are distinctly in the minority. If we are talking about muslims, there are muslims everywhere in London, including the mayor. We are hardly in a state of constantly being assailed by negative views of that group.

So, I ask again, what exactly have these people said that should get them banned?

In the US you get people like the Phelps family who would stage vile and wildly offensive protests at the funerals of fallen members of the armed forces, and that was okay because Free Speech, whereas we told them they weren’t welcome in the country. Not many tears were shed.

how much traction do you think the Phelps get in the US? It's zero. The best way to expose these nuts is to know who they are and fight their BS with words.

Free speech is important - a view, however abhorrent is just that. If we cease to allow free speech how can anyone ever challenge. I do however agree that there is a time and a place to discuss differing issues. Banning free speech makes extremism more like.

There are some people who are inspired by the online Muslim hate preachers out there as well as what they hear from some Muslim clerics in the UK. Their anger is fuelled by such people They go out and commit terrible atrocities.

one difference of course - some of those preachers are actually inciting violence (i.e. go kill X, go bomb Y etc etc).

www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43393035

This is why they were banned. They potentially had the intention of stirring up dissent in Luton. I suspect so they could say - there told you so Muslims are awful.

Free speech is not a protected right in the UK.

The UK has a right to prevent people coming in to the UK including those whose purpose is to sow social discord.

The three people denied entry are known white supremacists.

Promoting white supremacism is sowing social discord. So they were barred entry.

Kind of like when football hooligans are barred entry to other countries.

The best way to expose these nuts is to know who they are and fight their BS with words.

The problem with that is that their words are tied to emotions and lies. When people have the feels about something, its near impossible to convince them of the actual truth. Example: Brexit, immigration and sovereignty.

I think that on the whole women are more likely to support curtailments of free speech. And this thread perfectly demonstrates that. The problem is thinking with their feelings and not with their brains. So free speech which might be felt to be "mean" to one group or another is frowned upon and thought to be unnecessary.

I think the Trans issue might be the topic which breaks female conditioning here. The majority of women feel justified in opposing the push for Trans rights and wouldn't for one moment consider their opinions "hate speech". But that is exactly what it is and what will be enforced by the British state. See what's just happened to Kellie Jay Keen-Minshull.

Hate speech is a brilliant idea when it's being applied to people you personally hate and disagree with. What fun it is to see Nazis getting a kicking. But not so wonderful when the great eye of the state turns its attention to YOUR speech and YOUR thoughts. I guess the anti-free speechites are just banking that the people in power will always be on their team. A History lesson might be salutary.

She'd already handed out her silly leaflets in Luton.

A soft target as pointed out by "Hope not Hate."

"The best way to expose these nuts is to know who they are and fight their BS with words."

Except when they have the bigger guns. And you "dare call me a terrorist as you look down your gun, when I think of all the deeds that you have done".

They are liquidators, they simply couldn't give a rats. You have something they want, they just take it.

'The problem is thinking with their feelings and not with their brains.'

Interesting song choice User I was just thinking earlier how all the recent talk about the likelihood of a United Ireland would probably have been considered inflammatory and grounds to lock people up 30 years ago.

Everything Marchin said!

Also Corythatwas following facts with ‘always seems to mean’ doesn’t make the following facts, which thus far you’ve left completely unsubstantiated.
And we are not America.... we don’t have the same history, including that of segregation by race. Here 3% of brits are black and 1.1% are mixed race, over there 12% are black and 0.8 are mixed race. I’m not saying racism here doesn’t exist, but we seem to have done a far better job of intergrating with each other. I for one can’t wait until we’re several hundred years ahead, and ‘race’ isn’t a thing anymore.
To the pp that said about news being specifically negative for one demographic, I’d have to point out - isn’t all news negative? Do you want journalists to go pick out good deeds individuals in this demographic have done in the aim to ‘balance it out’? The whole point of news is alerting us to disasters/crimes etc. If one demographic is commiting more of these (terrorist attacks for example) that’s not the journalists fault. That doesn’t mean that it should reflect on anyone else in that demographic. No one should be held accountable for something that they didn’t do.