To wonder why MNers are so obsessed with Brexit now?

[LoveInTokyo]

I used to post on MN before the referendum and I saw very little discussion about Brexit in AIBU (although I think a lot of threads started in AIBU were moved to the EU Referendum topic).

In the EU Referendum topic traffic was fairly slow and there were just a few posters battling it out time and time again. A few posters on the leave side were, in my view, 99% likely to be paid trolls, who all disappeared immediately after the referendum.

Since the referendum the subject really seems to have picked up steam and there seem to be loads of people getting really worked up about how Brexit is a disaster and the country is going to the dogs.

AIBU to wonder where all these people were before, and why they weren’t all shouting from the rooftops when there was still a chance to change the result?

CadyHeron and itstimeforanamechange* - exactly. You cannot shut people down and dismiss them for long.
LoveinTokyo = can only Leave voters answer that question?

There was no recognition of the difficulties some peopel faced from the EU - they were dismissed and still are being dismissed - just as they are in other countries. Maybe some sort of rethink rather than "it's alright for us so it has to be alright for you too" attitude might have worked.

Recognition in what form?

LoveInTokyo

It was obvious that Cameron wasn't going to get major concessions - which is why he was a bit silly to go asking, and even sillier to come back claiming he had got some.

I read an article by an analyst in an entirely unrelated industry that put the (mainland) European vote - in a nutshell it was "you've always been pissing about on the margins (with your opt-outs) - if you have a referendum you have decide if you really want to be in or not"

But in a way that just highlights one of the issues - inward migration to the UK from the rest of the EU was pretty much unique in volume. Without getting too far into the arguments - this is the potential downside of centrally-set policies. In the same way that German economic interests and, for example interest rates, may not suit Greece, there can be problems when a single provision affects one or more members disproportionately.

Of course the EU couldn't make an exception, but the UK would have to be prepared to accept stuff that was politically sensitive at home.

There's always been a proportion of EU sceptic UK voters - or we'd have adopted the Euro and not needed the opt-outs, the problem with a referendum was it gave the opportunity to say "look, the EU really doesn't suit our interests" - and Cameron managed to play straight into that narrative rather than countering it.

Nobody is obsessed with it. It's just people having sensible discussions about real issues (and some total planks talking shit, but we try to ignore them!)

I'm fed up with trying to "understand" Brexit voters.

You don't have to understand us, you just have to accept that we won.

More people voted to leave than did to remain.

Those that didn't vote, by default cast their vote with whoever won - they were obviously happy with either result.

Democracy's great isn't it!!

I don't think that a lot of people appreciated the implications of brexit before the vote and they do now. People are worried for their futures. I understand the need to discuss it.

What specifically do you think is unfair about the way the EU has treated us? I think it's not the 'EU'. It's the arrogance of the principal players. Juncker, Barnier, Tusk Verhofstadt (and Merkel).
I was a devout Remainer but I have observed the behaviour of the little Empire builders. There's very little we can do now. Let the shit show begin!

I take your point, but part of the blame for that has to lie closer to home. The Blair government could have imposed transitional immigration controls on the new member states who joined in 2004 - they chose not to. Any government could, within the existing rules, have said that EU nationals wanting to live in the UK would have to leave after three months if they couldn’t show how they would support themselves financially - they chose not to.

I think once we have left we will look back ruefully and realise that being in the EU with the privileged position that we had really did suit our interests after all.

derxa, you don’t think UK politicians have been arrogant?

I think their behaviour has been far worse.

In Michel Barnier I see a man who is frustrated having to negotiate a deal with a party who doesn’t know what it wants and doesn’t have the first clue how to negotiate.

In Guy Verhofstadt I see a man who is defending my rights when my own government has let me down.

LoveInTokyo
I've wondered long and hard about what the Blair government was doing then. At the time I actually thought they were right and there was just a silly Daily Mail panic. On the other hand, the eventual 300K people a year started to look like a lot. I am not sure the transitional arrangement would have helped.

As for the 3 month rule I suspect that again is something that is more suited to mainland Europe where perhaps the apparatus exists and citizens are more accustomed to being asked about personal circumstances. Similarly - due to our history, we don't have the admin in place to check entitlements to stuff and our benefits mostly don't rely on contributions - this means we could so easily deny help to new arrivals as other EU nations.

Basically we needed to modernise and become a fully European nation or leave - and too many people are averse to higher taxes and state provisions here to allow that to happen - we just aren't cast in the French or German mould in a way that would have made the EU work much better for us.

On free trade, I heard a Scottish steel producer interviewed saying that the theoretical free market counted for nothing in his attempts to export to France. One thing those accusing some people in the UK of being "little englanders" seem to forget is that there is fierce nationalism and national pride in many countries in mainland europe.

That’s part of the issue though. If you join a club because you like it then decide actually I don’t like this club anymore you just leave the club simple easy. However this isn’t a club in the same way to be a member you have rules that change your life realised or not and leaving isn’t easy because it has a more cult style hold.

There are wrongs on both sides gov and EU as a club. The rules of the club due in part to mistakes of previous gov don’t suit anymore it should in theory be easy to leave but because of how entwined everything is compared to how the club started out make it a complete headache.

This is just it though, isn’t it?

We can’t control immigration because the Home Office is, and has always been, completely incompetent.

After Brexit, immigration probably will go down, but only because the UK will be a less attractive place for Europeans to come and work. So the number of productive immigrants will decrease naturally, but the number of unproductive immigrants will probably remain largely unchanged.

The EU was blamed for the consequences and failure of domestic policy.

Still happening.

All Brexit has started to do is show the incompetence, corruption and lack of quality of politician in the British System.

No ones come out well.

LoveInTokyo

I agree 100% about the Home Office.

I think your analysis about immigration may also prove correct.

Frank, I agree with you at least on the fptp and the fact that the tories keep getting voted in. It continues to baffle me.

I think our resistance to ID cards explains some of our difficulties in monitoring immigration as well.

In France, for example, every citizen has an ID card which they are required to carry at all times. If you are not French you should carry some other form of ID. I carry my driving licence rather than my passport because I refuse to carry my passport around with me, but if I actually need to prove my identity (e.g. at the bank) they will generally only accept the passport. Both the passport and driving licence show that I am an EU citizen and have the right to live and work here.

If you’re not French and not an EU citizen you need to have a valid carte de sejour. I don’t know whether you are required to carry them on you or not.

Despite having so many land borders with other countries and being in the Schengen area, I reckon it’s easier for the French authorities to identify people who shouldn’t be here and sling them out.

Quite frank, and apparently it’s the leavers who throw insults around confused

Both people who voted leave and those who voted remain bandy insults around

Its not been one way at all

Sad thing is it's happened and I wish we would get on with it now, the constant Brexit topics are the same thing, still flogging a dead horse still full of what ifs. It's done it can't be undone.

Despite having so many land borders with other countries and being in the Schengen area, I reckon it’s easier for the French authorities to identify people who shouldn’t be here and sling them out.

Except in Calais, obviously where they prefer to leave them alone in the hope they will escape to the UK.

My suspicion is that the language barrier and wider discrimination as well it being harder to work in the black economy makes France less attractive to migrants. The French people I know working in the UK say it's much easier to find work in the UK due to restrictive labour laws in France.

I think France and French are more accepting of state control - one of my French friends joked that "if it's not illegal it's compulsory" - in other words they expect their state/legal system to have an opinion on everything in a way we really don't

I am not a fan of the ID cards idea for the UK but mainly because of the costs and the proliferation of "computer says no" jobsworths with no common sense (see threads about people buying wine with DD in a supermarket) - and the uselessness of the Home Office, DVLA etc.

Because it is a bandwagon that you have to join if you want to appear educated and liberal minded. Exactly what most mumsnetters want to appear. Most probably couldn’t explain to you the issues (except regurgitated guardian articles). Leave voters who put forward reasoned and knowledgable arguments are often simply ignored on threads.

Because it is a bandwagon that you have to join if you want to appear educated and liberal minded

No, its something that you should be concerned about whether or not you are either of those things, but I appreciate you are less likely to understand the issues when you are neither.

so Belgium are able to practice the FOM rules quite happily, I wonder why we couldn't.

I suspect we don't have the people or infrastructure - but I also wonder if Belgians are less tolerant of rule-breakers? (Just wondering)