Jack the Ripper

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Not really an AIBU, just posted here for traffic.

What do you think about the investigation searching for Jack the Ripper? Do you think they could have identified him by now using DNA if they wanted to? I do.

I think it would make a huge statement about the importance of women and how much it had increased between the late 1800s and now if we managed to finally identify the killer.

I think maybe the murder of prostitutes wasn’t rate, but the manner in which JTR victims were killed was, I suppose most prostitutes were strangled or stabbed, but not mutilated.

There has been many theories and JTR does intrigue me.

JTR has long been considered the first serial killer.

MaryAnn Cotton killed 21 waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before JTR started his (or even her) spree, including 3 husbands and 11 children

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ann_Cotton

Yes Patricia Cornwall decided it was Sickert and all her evidence was slanted towards him from then on. I think she's written another one.
I think JTR was just another inadequate loser who lived in the area - working class manual worker who died young.
There is no need to glamorise him as a member of the royals or a doctor.
He was just a pyscho thug.

Outside of the canonical victims of JTR, the police think that there were at least twelve other victims of the same person and also some abroad, Canada if memory serves.

No one would seriously want even a penny spending on this nowadays though surely? Part of the myth and legend is that we will never know. In the event a lottery winner or some such spent money to finally 'prove' guilt, there would still be enough people to disbelieve it to make the original quest worthless.

Holly you're right about Cotton.
I make the comment because jtr had a sexual component which was rare. There had been sexual murders before but JTR caught the public imagination over three months in 1888.
Whereas Cotton killed family members with poison which was just as shocking but different.

I seem to remember they DNA tested a scarf of one of the victims and found a likely suspect but then it was debunked as inaccurate.

I don't know how I'd feel if I was approached as a possible direct descendent of Jack the ripper.

I don't think I'd want to give my dna voluntarily. I'm not sure solving the case would 'help' anyone as surely the living descendents of the victims are now quite removed?

The only thing to gain would be to satisfy people's curiosity and no doubt end up on countless documentaries on the True Crime channel, so I'd probably pass - although hypocritically I do find the case rather fascinating.

I had an idea that the "probable suspect" was a Baltic seaman who ended his days in a lunatic asylum.

Nah, he had to be someone of real importance, or else why keep the files secret for a 100+ years?
They already know who he was and it's someone that would still affect us today, hence why it's all so secret.

A better use of time, money and attention would be something like this alternative Jack the Ripper tour

http://beyondthestreets.org.uk/2017/10/04/hiddenhistory/

which concentrates on his victims, and on the lives of exploited women today. There's still one tour left.

Queen Well, they didn't happen all the time, but they were far from unheard of. There were prostitute murders prior to Martha Tabram and after Mary Kelly - some of whom were also considered Ripper victims at the time or later. The reason this collection of murders became such news were the mutilations and style of killing in a relatively short space of time and the reportage by the newspapers.

Paranoid Cornwell has now done two books on her theory and I'm astonished such an intelligent woman can put her name to either.

I always thought that there must have been a lot of serial killers let loose during the war ... how convenient to kill someone, pop the body near a bomb site .... poor old Fred, with his head stoved in ... people just wouldn't have had the time to investigate nor be able to collate the evidence when it was likely to be blown up in the next bombing raid. I would think there were a lot of old scores settled under the cover of darkness.

Plus all that travel without any documentation, so easy to assume someone elses identity, no photo ID, people wouldnt have had passports, and a birth/marriage certificate is a matter of public record, so easy to obtain a new identity.

Ourmiracle prostitute murder was in fact rare, even in the east end. In the 3 years preceding JTR there were no murders at all.

Fairies Why do people keep repeating that nonsense? It is ENTIRELY NORMAL PRACTICE to seal records from the public for 100 years in the UK. Just as census records are. In terms of files, the reasoning is that after 100 years anyone that could be affected by such records have died, and therefore any adverse information contained in them could not be used against them. Legitimate researchers and historians were actually given access to the Ripper files in the 70s before the 100 years were up.

Queen The Thames Torso Murders started in 1887 prior to the first canonical Ripper victim and although some of the victims weren't identified, at least one was, and she was a suspected prostitute. It is highly likely others were. You have to remember that the East End was absolutely full of people, sleeping dozens to rooms, and very often women resorted to prostitution for the price of a bed. While they might not have admitted as such, prostitution was a huge way of life in the East End at the time.

Nah, he had to be someone of real importance, or else why keep the files secret for a 100+ years? They already know who he was and it's someone that would still affect us today, hence why it's all so secret.

There’s no bigger secret than what went on behind the scenes of the abdication - and those files are now released. Including the over looked fact George V had his own son spied upon by the secret services because he was a fifth columnist and nazi sympathiser. Bertie was unfit to be king and would have been dealt with one way or another. WS was a convenient scapegoat.

The JTR files access under FOI was challenged on precedent - in that if you release names of informants, no matter how long after the even, you create distrust. The informant was promised protection and anonymity. All policing/counter terrorism/military rely on informants, or spies if you like.

shatnerswig

You're partially incorrect - some files are still under lock and key after 123 years.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8514000/Scotland-Yard-fights-to-keep-Jack-the-Ripper-files-secret.html

Although there have been many suspects over the years, Aaron Kosminski, an American doctor (Tumblety) to name but a few, I don't believe there was an actual Jack the Ripper. One man may have killed one or two women, but I don't think one person was responsible for the "five most famous murders". Violence was very common in Victorian London and unfortunately there were probably murders occurring on a fairly regular basis. I read The Ripper Diaries supposedly written by James Maybrick, a Liverpool cotton trader, and was convinced he was "Jack". It has subsequently been proven that they were a hoax. They were so convincing and obviously written to leave the reader in no doubt that Maybrick was the killer. I think that goes for most Ripper books. And I have read a lot of them!

Queen And of course Emma Smith was murdered in April 1888 prior to Martha Tabram in August and the then canonical 5. She was not a Ripper victim but she was a prostitute.

Yes please don't rely on films like johnny depp's "From Hell" which bears no relation to what happened.
JTR was a man who was able to move through the crowded streets quite easily because he didn't stand out from the rest of the east enders.

Holly Yes, there are still some files being held, this is true, but this is also the case for certain other crimes too. What I was pointing out was that for decades people have said "the Establishment know who done it because otherwise why have the files been kept secret for 100 years" when the truth is that was total standard practice and you could therefore apply that logic to pretty much every similar crime and that the Establishment are therefore covering up the identity of every unsolved murder.

I'm not sure which Ripperologist said it first, but I agree with him. It went something like this:

"On the Day of Judgement and we're all stood before a higher power, someone will stand forward and admit to being Jack the Ripper and everyone will turn round and say 'WHO????" Because it will be someone no one has ever heard of or suspected.

Shatner I have an open mind about Emma Smith. I think she could have been a jtr victim - his first experiment with a gang of friends and enjoyed it so much went on as a lone killer. I think jtr could have killed some of the ones after Mary Kelly.
I don't believe the police necessarily got it right about five canonical victims.

We'll never know for sure - and that's why it's still so fascinating. It's like buying a thriller and realising someone has ripped out the last few pages!

It's fiction but I really enjoyed the Laurie Graham book about the ripper - "the night in question" - the fictional narrator is a childhood friend of one of the victims. (I bloody love Laurie Graham, she's one of our best authors IMO!).

I have a theory about who may have done it. A guy called Hutchinson who lived locally and knew Mary Kelly and was probably one of her regulars.
He was seen standing for an hour watching her front door on the night she died.
When a witness gave a statement about seeing him but not naming him, he came forward and gave a statement admitting this. He said he'd seen her going inside with a client and stood there in the cold for an hour out of curiosity!
The police never considered his behaviour odd or treated him as a suspect.

George Hutchinson

Informant following Mary Jane Kelly's inquest and recent suspect.

An unemployed labourer and former groom, described as being of military appearance[1] and living at the Victoria Working Men's Home, Commercial Street. At 6.00pm on 12th November 1888, he went to Commercial Street Police Station and gave the following statement to Sgt Edward Badham, 31H:

About 2 am 9th I was coming by Thrawl Street, Commercial Street, and saw just before I got to Flower and Dean Street I saw the murdered woman Kelly. And she said to me Hutchinson will you lend me sixpence. I said I cant I have spent all my money going down to Romford. She said Good morning I must go and find some money. She went away toward Thrawl Street. A man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her. They both burst out laughing. I heard her say alright to him. And the man said you will be alright for what I have told you. He then placed his right hand around her shoulders. He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it. I stood against the lamp of the Queen’s Head Public House and watched him. They both then came past me and the man hid down his head with his hat over his eyes. I stooped down and looked him in the face. He looked at me stern. They both went into Dorset Street I followed them. They both stood at the corner of the Court for about 3 minutes. He said something to her. She said alright my dear come along you will be comfortable He then placed his arm on her shoulder and gave her a kiss. She said she had lost her handkercheif he then pulled his handkercheif a red one out and gave it to her. They both then went up the court together. I then went to the Court to see if I could see them, but could not. I stood there for about three quarters of an hour to see if they came out they did not so I went away.

Description age about 34 or 35. height 5ft6 complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes slight moustache, curled up each end, and hair dark, very surley looking dress long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan. And a dark jacket under. Light waistcoat dark trousers dark felt hat turned down in the middle. Button boots and gaiters with white buttons. Wore a very thick gold chain white linen collar. Black tie with horse shoe pin. Respectable appearance walked very sharp. Jewish appearance. Can be identified. [2]

Inspector Frederick Abberline later questioned Hutchinson regarding the above statement:

I have interrogated him this evening and I am of opinion his statement is true. He informed me that he had occasionally given the deceased a few shillings, and that he had known her about 3 years. Also that he was surprised to see a man so well dressed in her company which caused him to watch them.[3]

It is highly likely that he was the man Sarah Lewis saw standing outside the lodging house opposite Miller's Court (Commercial Street Chambers, 15-20 Dorset Street) between 2.00 and 3.00am on the morning of the murder.[4]

Hutchinson also said that he thought he saw Kelly's companion again in Middlesex Street (Petticoat Lane) on 11th November, but could not be certain. Also, he had apparently stayed out until 3.00am on 13th November looking for the man[5].

George Hutchinson has since become a controversial witness and issues have been raised about several aspects of his statement:

Why he waited 3 days before volunteering his information.
Why he waited for so long outside Miller's Court that morning.
His extremely detailed description of the man seen with Kelly.

He has also been suggested by several authors as a suspect for the Whitechapel Murders.[6][7][8][9]

In truth, little is known about George Hutchinson, other than the brief personal details given in 1888. Author Melvyn Fairclough interviewed a Reginald Hutchinson who claimed that his father, George William Topping Hutchinson, was the man who knew Mary Kelly. He claimed he was born on 1st October 1866, employed as a plumber (and apparently rarely, if ever, out of work) and that he knew one of the victims and was interviewed by police at the time. When pressed by his son as to the identity of Jack the Ripper, this George Hutchinson replied that "it was more to do with the Royal Family than ordinary people"[10]. Although a photograph of him also surfaced, this particular identification of Hutchinson has been greeted with a great deal of scepticism.

References