Ridiculous to try and sue a university over a "mickey mouse" degree?

[Creambun2]

thetab.com/uk/2018/03/10/a-graduate-is-suing-her-university-for-60000-for-giving-her-a-mickey-mouse-degree-62377

Surely, it is down to individuals to research their university and course appropriately and understand that whatever degree or university you go to, getting the job you want will be mostly about you and your skills?

I agree universities pump out lots of propaganda about "employment prospects" but saying, for example, 90% of graduates employed within 6 months means nothing is 89% of those are not in graduate level jobs.

The sad thing about this is that it gives ARU bad publicity. That is a real shame as ARU is a GREAT little university. Some of the lecturers really are very very good, and there are some world leading, truly excellent researchers based at the uni.

Please don't see this student as reflective of this university. It is an inspiring place with some amazing students and dedicated, passionate staff.

I really hope this publicity does not tarnish a little gem of a uni.

"user" - you joined MN to say that? Do you work for ARU by any chance?

It sounds a bit twattish and cruel to say but a student working at CCC at A level (and actually working at that level, not having a bad exam due to illness or extenuating factors etc) is not performing brilliantly

Yes it does sound twattish and cruel.

!!! I didn't join for that!! I name changed though! :)

Sorry, didn't answer your second question creambun! .... yes, I've been both a member of staff and a student at ARU. I've also worked at a number of other universities and been a student at a fair few too. I can honestly say, there are a great many students at ARU who work v v hard, and many have had to fight hard and overcome many obstacles to get there. The ARU staff I've met have all been truly passionate and dedicated individuals. Many of them do engage in world class research, and all of them work their socks off to give their students the best support, the best teaching, and the best experiences and opportunities they can. It's a small university with enormous potential and it would be so sad if it's potential was hindered or it's reputation blighted because of one individual.

This wasn't some naive 18 year old from a deprived sink estate and no parental support. This was a 23 yo (at least) international student from Hong Kong

Why the hell was she at Anglia Ruskin? Did she think it was a Cambridge University college or something? With full international fees and a Chinese passport in your pocket, just why would you go to a low-ranked post-92 in your mid-20s? I suspect there's more to the story than meets the eye. I wonder if she'd been kicked out of somewhere previously?

I teach at a Russell Group university and I know what I'm talking about.

I work at a university similar to ARU. Like ARU we are committed to widening participation, adding value, and offering students from a range of backgrounds the opportunity to achieve. We do this by offering work Placements, live projects with employers, and a range of extracurricular activities to prepare them for work. Over 70% of our students go into graduate jobs or postgraduate education and I expect that ARU will be similar. We are not Russell Group, but almost all the lecturers hold postgrad qualifications, including PhDs, from Russell Group universities. If ARU lied on their prospectus, then they have a case to answer, but 25% of students overall get a first these days (when I was a student it was 5% and they were the really exceptional students), and need more than good degree to land a good job. Once you add in the fact that almost 50% of young people get a degree these days, what they do, and the experience they accumulate during their degree, is as important as the degree itself.

This student would have realised that she’d made the wrong choice during the first few months of her degree. She chose to complete and graduate. I wonder what happened for her to become so anti ARU.

"why would you go to a low-ranked post-92 in your mid-20s?"

Why would "post-92" mean anything to someone born in 1995 in another country. The whole point is that they're all called universities now.

Why would "post-92" mean anything to someone born in 1995 in another country Umm she was born in the 80's back when the UK had sovereignty over Hong Kong and she probably did GCSEs and A Levels at a comprehensive or something similar.

Depends what they said in their prospectus.

For instance, look at this course's unistats unistats.ac.uk/subjects/employment/10007842FT-UBFCUOCFINSC0/ReturnTo/Search Vast majority are not in a managerial or professional job within 6 months, most working in retail. How do they sell it online?

"See yourself as a professional forensic scientist, confidently applying your scientific expertise to criminal investigations from the crime scene to the courtroom? Our BSc Forensic and Investigative Science will enable you to do just that.`'

"We offer all of this because our main aim is to prepare you for a future in crime scene investigation or forensic analysis by providing you with the scientific know-how that’ll boost your job prospects."

"Graduate destinations - You'll have a strong development of scientific investigation which will prepare you for a career as a crime scene investigator, forensic analyst or other roles in the wider scientific field, including chemical pathology, environmental analyst, blood biosciences and teaching"

This one is an ASA complaint waiting to happen...

Does ANYONE with a degree in forensic science go on to get a well paid job in that field ?

I teach at a Russell Group university and I know what I'm talking about

there seems to be a ridiculously high percentage of Russell group university lecturers and admissions tutors on mumsnet.

I did not do as well as expected in my A levels for various reasons and went to ARU through clearing out of desperation to leave home. Away from home I worked to my potential. I ended up really enjoying it. I can assure you that I didn't imagine working very hard on my dissertation!

I shared a house with four Cambridge uni friends and we all went into similar careers.

@Walkingdeadfangirl @CatBAHons completely agree with you both. Well said.

Yes it does sound twattish and cruel.

Fair enough. A CCC student is not performing well though. It may be well for them, they may have worked very hard. But it’s not indicative of a very smart student. A levels are not hard. When I went to uni the first time (science course) we covered the A level biology syllabus in a week for those who didn’t have the A level. A CCC entrance course is either struggling to fill places or aimed at lower achieving students.

Does ANYONE with a degree in forensic science go on to get a well paid job in that field

Not many. There are about a thousand applicants per job. You stand a MUCH better chance of getting a job with a pure science degree and a masters in forensics anyway, because there isn’t enough rigorous science in the FS degrees.

It’s another growth area (being slashed now) where graduates frankly are conned. There were about 9,000 graduates a year at one point and only a couple of thousand jobs in the whole of the UK

Good for you. There are plenty of kids who get CCC, or BCC who don't cope particularly well with exams but excel at independent research and coursework. It's right and proper that they should get the opportunity to go to uni if they want.

But saying "a levels are not hard" just makes you sound like an arse.

I must say even I know about forensic science being pretty awful!

I think this student's case might be weak - because surely she should have noticed at some point earlier, and begun action (both legal action against university for misselling, and her own activity to swop to a course/university she felt was a better match to her skills/aspirations)

I would however be interested in the upshot of this case if it did end up in court. There is a great deal of information from multiple sources about British universities, and it is much easier these days to look up in multiple fora from anywhere in the world. So how far 'caveat emptor' applies these days, and with assumption that people use the internet, seems worth exploring.

"A levels are not hard."

Well, don't you need A-C in a GCSE of that subject meaning only about half of kids can do A-levels at all and then the grades go from A-E so I can't see how C is so bad. Sounds like an average grade in a qualification that only half do, so actually a good result.
What am I missing?

"she was born in the 80's back when the UK had sovereignty over Hong Kong and she probably did GCSEs and A Levels at a comprehensive or something similar."

Sorry, I'm sure I saw a few posts about her being 23 or 26. Must have misread that!
I'm still not convinced that people younger than me know what post-92 means.

THe forensics thing just sums up how kids are conned for me. It sounds like a proper science degree, it sounds glamorous. But there just aren’t the jobs - the only people I know who work in forensics are one qualified pathologist (ie a medical doctor with years and years of specialist training) and someone who did a similar initial course to me then did a PhD in a very specific DNA based sequencing technology when it was being developed.
The idea that you can do an FS degree and it’s just like CSI is really far from the mark.
I’ve worked in universities and there’s a lot of this going on. Especially post fee introduction- the students expect delivery for their money. But there’s a disconnect between what I think they’re entitled to expect (quality teaching, good lab facilities, excellent library access to as many journals as possible) and what they expect - which is to be given a degree.
When I did my degree we were lectured and took notes - there might have been a handout if we were lucky if something too complex to copy off the board accurately (biochemical pathways or equations ) but that was it. Students now expect a handout of all slides and they expect that if they memorise that they get high grades. The fuss I had when I told them that no, this is just the outline of the concept I’ve given them - I expect the to go and read for a few hours around this. That’s not fair! Apparently. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I’ve been told to not mark any papers below 50%. Ive been told I can’t mark above 85% even if work is superlative. I’ve been told not to mark any lab work below 50% (even if the student has handed in a BLANK worksheet set with just their name on.) I refused to do this and was hauled over coals for it. Apparently the bell curve of marking is something we have to make the marks fit, not something that emerges naturally from the marks that exist. When you’re dealing with attitudes like that from management it’s bloody demoralising.

This argument could be a thing of the past soon- degrees rated gold, silver, bronze
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-43346678

Forensic science jobs are dead man's shoes posts. New graduates don't stand a chance of getting a job

CuboidalSlipshoddy I totally agree. Maybe this 'fight' is a way of saving face to her family? If she put as much effort into pursuing the high powered career she reckons she's been denied, as she has into pursuing this case, she'd be flying high by now!

And I agree about her not being naive. As I said ^ DNephew's HK girlfriend managed to work out which English universities were worth applying to.