To think British people are generally quite nice to children?

[Toadinthehole]

I recently read the following article in the Guardian by Polly Toynbee Has the UK become a country that really doesn’t like children?

It's the comments below the line that I want to discuss, not the article itself. In those comments there is a repeated assertion that compared to other countries (continental Europe in particular) that British people dislike children and treat them unkindly. Here is an example:

Most adults don't seem to like having children around in restaurants or anywhere else adults gather to socialise. You often see the attitude BLT [below the line] here in regard to our young. We British as a nation migh want to protect them but we don't really love them, not like other European countries seem to do.

There are also the usual comments about how too many parents these days let their kids run amok and spoil them etc etc.

I no longer live in the UK but I grew up there and still visit family in London every few years or so. My general observations of UK parents (leastways what I see of them) is that they are on the whole kind to children although perhaps a little bit too worried about breaking them.

AIBU?

customers being really snobby with cbildren. Or that you can have wedding invitations that says no children. I grew up overseas and there is no such thing as a no children wedding.

Yeah, no such thing as a no children Indian wedding either lol. I actually find a lot of young adults today incredibly childlike in their dislike of kids. They want to be the centre of attention rather than to create an environment all enjoy.

One of the the things the British are good at is self-critism. For any non-Brits bashing the UK on this thread (particularly if living in the UK), this is incredibly rude and the height of bad manners.

I live in Switzerland but I'm not Swiss. The place isn't perfect of course, because nowhere is. I certainly don't go on Swiss forums full of Swiss people to slag the country off and tell them that their childcare fees are the highest in Europe blah blah blah.

I seriously hope you don't live in the UK with your sneering, superior attitude. If you do, you might want to re-adjust it, or alternatively, fuck off.

What the fuck? I don’t think @BazilGin said was ‘sneering, superior attitude’. I think the raised really good points and it’s something that concerns me raising a child (I’m a born and bred Brit before you suggest there is something wrong with my attitude).

I think we as a country segregate children and treat them as another class. Before I had a child, children weren’t on my radar at all. I rarely saw them at restaurants I’d eat at (nothing particular fancy, just not labelled ‘child friendly’), never saw then after 8pm and if I didn’t notice them, they would be kept quite in the corner with a tablet or colouring book and never seemed to be involved in the conversation.

Now I have DS (7 months), I’m so conscious that I will judged for him making any noise. Thankfully mostly people (99% older people) have been wonderful and love to stop for a smile or chat. I have however also had the odd sneer when he’s screeched (in delight) but that’s been quite rare.

I think as someone said up-Post, it’s not necessarily people but the society in general that has an issue with children in the U.K.

I live in Spain. 2 DC primary aged.

To me the UK does seem unfriendly, here kids are treated well.

BazilGin My kids started school at 3. It's not compulsory until 6, but I don't know anyone that has waited. School is great for them. P3, P4 & P5 (the first 3 years) are just play and basics. They loved it.

DeltaG I think you're being very harsh. We have routine, please don't think we don't. Our DC go to bed at 9 which is early for here, but they aren't overtired and have a proper nights sleep.
We don't take the DC to the tourist spots, and that's where you see the drunk and swearing (usually Brits) adults.
In our local cafes and bars, yes we see kids out late but it's fine because kids are often out in cafes and such they know how to behave so they aren't running amok.
It's nice. Most squares have cafes with terraces and little parks in them so the kids all play while the adults have a coffee or a glass of wine. It's very relaxed. Very far from the way you have portrayed it.

seedsofchocolate I agree. It's about tolerance.

Gwenhwyfar If a woman is over 60 here they push in front. They just think their entitled. No idea why, in the most part they look and seem totally steady on their feet and able bodied. It's weird, but it's just what they do.

I've found that most people are nice to ds. He has severe autism and so we got the odd intolerant one who thinks he shouldn't be out but most people are pleasant and smile at him rather than pull a face.
We don't do 'adult' places that much so I suppose it's possible we might get a different reaction if we did.

Depends. In real life I’ve never had any problem with reactions to my children. However, on here and other social media and news sites you’d think that having children was akin to murdering puppies. I’m stunned at some of the viciousness aimed at them. If I was overseas and based my judgement of the UK on what was written about children I wouldn’t touch this country with a barge pole.

@DinioStomp

Your post highlights the cultural differences of children out later at night with adults vs them being in bed. Both stances have their plus and minus points. I personally favour the latter, you the former. It doesn't follow that you are therefore more 'child friendly' (for want of a better phrase) than me, as is insinuated on this thread and in the original link.

The 7pm bedtime does seem to be a UK thing. I've lived in a few countries and only seen it there.

Delta Fine if you prefer it. I didn't like the way you portrayed it here, children running amok, around drunk and swearing adults, it's just not like that. Far from it.
I'm a parent now, have lived in different countries and visit friends in the UK regularly, I see the differences and I personally find the UK not child friendly

@ WonderLime

But children are not just mini-adults, they have their own unique needs and preferences and it is thus appropriate that they are treated differently.

When I am in the UK with mine, I've never felt conscious of them making a noise (unless it's excessive or clearly disruptive) or felt judged. It seems your concern about other Brits' attitudes is mis-placed as well, since you say yourself than most people have been wonderful. Would you automatically feel less worried if you were with them in say, France then? Everyone experiences the odd grumpy arsehole from time to time, but that is true of every country.

@ DinStomp

You personal choice, as you said.

Personally, I have found children running amok in restaurants and cafés late at night in parts of Spain (not Brits abroad hotspots, but smart cities like Salamanca and León), so it isn't the all the fluffy, inclusive utopia you try to make it out to be either.

As I said, both cultures have their plus and minus points. You prefer the Spanish one, I prefer the British one. Neither choice is superior to the other.

I certainly don't go on Swiss forums full of Swiss people to slag the country off and tell them that their childcare fees are the highest in Europe blah blah blah

Oh not this old chestnut. Immigrants, tourists, brown people, foreigners are allowed an opinion just as much as anyone else. It’s not “rude”

@DeltaG - no, they aren't mini adults but they are individuals in their own right. I think in the UK there's a tendency to see they as something different from people - like a step up from a dog (though I sometimes get the impression that some people are more tolerant of dogs).

I have experienced mostly pleasant attitudes, but to be fair my baby is pretty easy to settle with a cuddle - so I spend a lot of time carrying him around with him smiling away. I'm more anxious about the toddler years when he becomes more wilful and loud. I don't think that people in the U.K. are very tolerant of that at all.

I see French Spanish and Italian kids running riot in restaurants and I'm jolly glad that we don't welcome behaviour like that I disagree, I've always found French children to be much better behaved in restaurants than British kids. I live in Spain and most of the kind of bars/restaurants kids are out at late have kids running around outside (sometimes inside) or in play areas, but it's a good atmosphere. The Spanish are much louder and more lively than the Brits anyway, so the children are often making less noise than the adults

The opinion may well not be rude in and of itself, but the language and delivery can be.

I live in Barcelona it really is a utopia I absolutely do prefer Spanish culture. I didn't want an argument about it, I'm pretty chilled, I just felt your portrayal was unfair.

Any opinion can be stated in a rude way, but that’s no different to natives. It sounded like you were saying that people who are from other countries or who have foreign heritage shouldn’t voice their opinions.

@ WonderLime
I've got a toddler and have not encountered any hostility towards him in the UK so I think you're probably worried over nothing to be honest.

@ expatinspain

I disagree about French kids. I live on the Franc-Suisse border and am regularly out in French restaurants. Many of our friends also let theirs race about when dining out together...

I find the Uk to be very friendly towards children. There's an awareness and reluctance to 'overstep the line' here though, that doesn't exist in some places. It's weird because so often what we tolerate and find so endearing on holiday, would have us posting on AIBU in a second if it happened here. There's always some travel writer or other in the guardian or similar who will gleefully describe how a friendly waiter carried the tantrumming toddler off to play for hours while the parents were eating their truffle tagliatelle. Whereas if that happened here we'd be assuming he was a paedophile or a kidnapper. In lots of Arabic countries people will kiss babies in prams without warning, give them treats etc. not many people dare to do this here, for fear of dreadful repercussions. Imagine it... "AIBU... A stranger with A COLD kissed my baby " . It's a fine balance!

@ catsforgotpassword

Why on earth would l say that when I myself am from other country and have foreign heritage?

In is my opinion that women only getting the vote in the Swiss canton of Appenzell in 1991 is disgraceful, but as a foreigner living in the country, I wouldn't go on a Swiss forum full of Swiss people to say that the Swiss seem to hate women. My opinion is perfectly valid and many people probably agree with it, but delivering it in such a way with a good dose of hyperbole in addition, would likely get people's backs up.

@ WonderLime

The Swiss are fairly similar to the British, but with the added benefit that Switzerland is a pristine skiers paradise rolling in cheese, chocolate and money. Closet to utopia I've found and I've also lived in the UK, France, the Philippines and Malaysia

Everywhere we went in Sicily Italy everyone went out of there for our kids. They would stop and talk to them. If one was having a tantrum they would smile and chat to. It was amazing. We spent 1 year in Sicily and they are so much nicer to kids. Evenings out in restaurants we were welcomed and encouraged with kids. Back in the UK miserable old screamed at my daughter in Tesco to shut the f* up. Oh and my son was singing once and a man starting screaming on the bus at him to keep quiet. Overall this country is down the pile for this one.

Delta I don’t see why, if the discussion was being had, you shouldn’t say it. I personally believe everyone should be treated equally, immigrants shouldn’t be held to a different standard.

I don't think Britain has a dislike of children- I think we as a whole have a dislike of badly behaved children. Restaurants that ban children do so because they don't want children running around and screaming, causing a health and safety risk and also ruining the experience of child free customers. On the whole though, children are smiled at and chatted too pretty much everywhere and I don't think Ive ever witnessed someone struggling in public with a pushchair without someone else stepping in to help

@ Cats
There are ways of saying things and ways of saying things. Negative information can be discussed and conveyed without being rude and causing offence to people.

I agree, but I don’t think anyone was particularly offensive here.

In some European countries old people will go in front of ANY young or middle aged people, not just children. The rationale is that it's harder for them to stand up for a long time to queue. It's a bit like expecting younger people to give up their seat for them.
I think this is reasonable. In the UK, as there is not a common understanding here that old people should go first, then it would be polite for them to ask if they can go in front of someone first. Pushing in front of children, more so than adults, simply because they have less power to complain, is unacceptable.

I do not get people jump in front of me as often as my 11 year old does, and it is adults of all ages over about 40 doing it, not just the elderly.