To think British people are generally quite nice to children?

[Toadinthehole]

I recently read the following article in the Guardian by Polly Toynbee Has the UK become a country that really doesn’t like children?

It's the comments below the line that I want to discuss, not the article itself. In those comments there is a repeated assertion that compared to other countries (continental Europe in particular) that British people dislike children and treat them unkindly. Here is an example:

Most adults don't seem to like having children around in restaurants or anywhere else adults gather to socialise. You often see the attitude BLT [below the line] here in regard to our young. We British as a nation migh want to protect them but we don't really love them, not like other European countries seem to do.

There are also the usual comments about how too many parents these days let their kids run amok and spoil them etc etc.

I no longer live in the UK but I grew up there and still visit family in London every few years or so. My general observations of UK parents (leastways what I see of them) is that they are on the whole kind to children although perhaps a little bit too worried about breaking them.

AIBU?

DD (4) went through a phase of cuddling EVERYONE we saw when out shopping/wherever. I was mortified and pretty much permanently sweating, flustered and apologising (they were full on cuddles). We had plenty of 'that's made my day that has!' a few lollies/balloons/stickers given in shops and only 2 snarly hug recipients, both men. Thankfully this phase has ended, though i occasionally spot her ITCHING to cuddle someone but she manages not to. Although it was a stressful 4 or so months it restored my faith in (England's) adult population and would say the vast majority like well mannered, reasonably quiet children. (I've NEVER let her disturb any one with shouting/crying/noise, it was just the molestation phase ). I understand peoples' objection to loud, obnoxious out of control children who run amok while the parent is oblivious with their nose glued to their phone.

I've had positive and negative experiences. Overall, I agree Brits expect kids' lives should be during the day and adults' in evening time. I don't feel they should be so separate. I find the Spanish more inclusive of children at evening times. I quite like this.

In comparison to other European countries, no, the U.K. seems to hate children. The earliest school start in Europe (which has proven to be damaging but hey who cares!), the highest childcare fees (honestly, wtf!), boarding schools from early age (for upper classes or the rich, I suppose). General attitude is that "they should be seen not heard". You can only take them to "child friendly" places, education system seriously screwed (testing at 7, anyone? This is the age I have actually STARTED school). Not to mention horrible attitude towards teenagers, lack of school resources, any extra curricular activities are expensive. You come out of university in debt. In comparison, I had a completely free primary and secondary (state funded) music education. Paid nothing for my university....I can go on and on....

Not in my experience, people are usually lovely, with the exception of the odd one or two which is to be expected. I do think that other countries bring their children into social occasions more and have less of any issue with them having late nights and being in adult company.

I think there's a lot of negativity towards teenagers, mostly unjustified.

I live in Greece, and there is no comparison. The UK may have more child friendly facilities but it ends there. Greek airlines have also been far more accommodating than any UK based airline - in my personal experience.

I don’t think it’s about disliking children though, it’s more about tolerance. As a Brit I tend to ‘hear’ screaming kids far more than my Greek counterparts... Additionally, being naughty for them is simply a child being a child.

It’s far more appealing but I do also understand the seen and not heard mentality also.

• no need for the extra also

I think people in britain like children but at the same time they seem to lead separate lives to the adults.
In most cases kids at very early , adults eat after kids are in bed.
Children go to bed very early.
Start full time school very early as well compared to other European countries.
Children are taken to "child friendly" places/pubs/restaurant/holidays etc
whilst in other places kids will eat with the family, go to bed only a bit earlier then parents/rest of family, there aren't many specific child friendly things, you just take them with you where you are going etc.

Completely agree.

@BazilGin - not sure your facts are correct.

In Switzerland (a European country last time I checked), my son's childcare fees are £2,300 per month (not a typo). Miles more than in the UK. There's also no free allowance either.

In France, children can start school (école maternelle) at 2-3 years old. In know this from personal experience, my DH is French and himself went at this age.

So, you seems to be talking bollox in the main. I seriously hope you don't live in the UK with your sneering, superior attitude. If you do, you might want to re-adjust it, or alternatively, fuck off.

I have seen some adults show more tolerance and understanding towards dogs than towards children. Such as looking for the reason for, and making excuses for the behaviour of a dog, but expecting a child to behave like, or be better behaved than an adult. I place more value on children than dogs!

I have a 9 month old and most of the interactions I have are positive but I’ve has a few negative things said, all by the older generation to be honest. We walked into a restaurant the other day and a woman in her 70s said very loudly, ‘oh for gods sake, a baby that’s just what we need. Who wants to hear a crying baby while they are trying to eat their lunch’

It upset me a bit as it was quite a nasty comment and I felt on edge the whole time I was there in case I was going to annoy anyone by being there and my son didn’t make a peep the whole meal. Some people have the attitude that babies shouldn’t be taken out places but they are part of society so I don’t see why they should be kept away. For what it’s worth if he had started crying I would have stepped out

I thought the same as you, until I took DS to Spain. While different attitude

@DeltaG Even though it appears that children should be starting school after their 5th birthday, summer born start just after turning 4. Am I wrong?

Not sure what bit of what I said is bollox? The majority of EU countries have a later compulsory school start age.

I see a huge difference between the UK and other cultures. We are a multicultural family, and my Indian family’s attitude is much more open to kids than most native brits. I also have family from other European countries and likewise, they’re open to kids too.

In Britain, kids are seen as a nuisance and you’re given looks of disdain.

@DeltaG, apologies, UK hasn't got the highest childcare costs. It is the 2nd place after Switzerland.

• The UK has the highest costs of childcare for any country apart from Switzerland - 26.6% of average family incomes, compared to an OECD average of 11.8%
• That figure is 40.9% of the average UK wage

We are a Northern hemisphere country so don’t have the weather for al fresco eating so over the decades going out in the evening has been a special treat for adults. I love my kids same as anybody else regardless of nationality and will always be helpful to children such as giving them a seat on the tube or bus as they can’t balance on little legs or if it’s busy crowded public transport. It’s utter bollocks that we like kids less than other countries it’s just our society is different as we live in cooler climes

"Today my 11 year old DS was queuing at the farmers market and an older woman who was next in the queue behind him ignored him and ordered first. "

In some European countries old people will go in front of ANY young or middle aged people, not just children. The rationale is that it's harder for them to stand up for a long time to queue. It's a bit like expecting younger people to give up their seat for them.

@BazilGin

Not the highest then. So not true; i.e. bollox.

Do you live in the UK? If so, why?

The early school thing isn't quite true as many European countries send children to nurseries from a very young age.

The thing about children staying up late in hot countries is just climate isn't it? No point going to bed early in Spain in the summer. I remember going into a Portuguese cafe in another European country, children were up very late and exposed to a hell of a lot of smoke. That's good the parents' social life, but I don't see how it's good for the children.

I agree that it's easy to forget the 99 positive interactions & remember the 1 negative.

Recently I was sat having breakfast with my 3 year old in Bills. She wasn't making a sound (colouring). A man who had walked in to meet I assume his girlfriend who was sat nearby loudly exclaimed 'Christ could you have got us a worse table' at the top of his voice while looking directly at us. It was just so unnecessary.

However, we had just as much right to eat there as he did. Stood our ground. Thankfully she was well behaved. We get the bus daily & are always happy to chat to strangers on it. I'd like to think I'm teaching my daughter better manners than some of the adults I come across have.

To earlier posters, I wasn’t talking about preschool or nursery start but a compulsory start age for primary education.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029435-000-too-much-too-young-should-schooling-start-at-age-7/amp/

I think the Brits are way nicer esp when it comes to my child with SN (ASD & learning diffs). I have family in France and Germany and DC gets stared at, complained about in restaurants (making low level repetitive sounds) etc. People here are so much nicer and open than compared to my French/German experience.

Even when family and friends visit us over here, they note how much nicer DC gets treated when out and about

I disagree actually. I spend a lot of time the Med and have previously lived in both Cyprus and Turkey. In all of those countries children and teenagers are treated better. By that I don’t mean education/medical/safeguarding. I mean day-to-day. You rarely will not see people tutting or complaining about children in restaurants or public transport. If children cry, you often see strangers trying to help, not judge. They don’t automatically assume groups of teenagers are up to no good, or committing crime.

All in all, I think children get a bad wrap in the uk. There is an expectation they should be seen and not heard.

as we live in cooler climes

I highly doubt this is all down to cold climates. It’s also very fashionable to not have kids or have them later in the UK (which is fine! Everyone’s choice etc) and so people sneer at those who have young families or families at all. Whereas in cultures where it is assumed you will have kids, there’s a lot more support.

I don’t agree with you at all. There are places that clearly don’t want children in there. There was just a thread either here or my local fb group, asking about family membership to holiday inn for swimming. Many told the OP about the other customers being really snobby with cbildren. Or that you can have wedding invitations that says no children. I grew up overseas and there is no such thing as a no children wedding.

It’s basically what another poster said already. Children are to be seen, not heard.