Am I alone in wondering where the WOMEN wanting to trans are?

[loveyouradvice]

They feel so invisible....

Everywhere I look there are men who have or are transitioning to be transwomen - on magazine covers, on all women shortlists, in the media....

But where are the natal born women who are/have transitioned?

The only two I've come across are:

• one who detransitioned and wrote movingly about it, after ten years as a transman
• the american high school wrestler who is fighting to be allowed to fight in men's categories

^^^^^ That was to @AssassinatedBeauty

And it seems that it's obvious that anything other than the current gender identity belief system isn't just another viewpoint or belief, but in fact wrong, outdated, backwards. Comparable to being racist, homophobic, misogynistic and so on. So not just another view point at all.

I'm quite sure that simply expressing a view in public that is contrary to the accepted current beliefs about gender identity will be treated as harassment or malicious communication and so on

It isn't, the malicious communication act doesn't allow for that. You actually have to communicate something malicious to someone. The first big case about this, was someone sending photos of aborted feti, to a chemist who was selling the morning after pill.

Having those photos wouldn't be a crime, showing them to like minded people wouldn't be a crime. Sending them to cause fear or alarm is a crime.

The next case was a man sending letters to the family of a murder victims, claiming that the murder was the family's fault.

Thinking that the family was at fault wouldn't be a crime, discussing it with your mates in the put wouldn't be a crime. Getting in touch with the victim's family and causing them fear and alarm is a crime.

This is not a law that you're going to accidentally break.

Harassment has an even higher burden of proof, you have to harass someone two or three times.

Well yes, I can see why you could make the comparison in how it could be perceived.

I don't know how that means talking about it will suddenly be a hate crime though.

People who are homophobic or racist are still required to commit actual crimes these days before anyone prosecutes them; we don't just round them all up once they give themselves away

seems that it's obvious that anything other than the current gender identity belief system isn't just another viewpoint or belief, but in fact wrong, outdated, backwards. Comparable to being racist, homophobic, misogynistic and so on. So not just another view point at all.

People continue to be racist, homophobic and misogynistic, The Equalities Act hasn't stopped them. They simply can't discrimate or harass people because of those views. That doesn't seem very onerous to me.

I think it's a comparison that many people who believe in gender identity make about people who don't, either implicitly or explicitly.

And there it is again. The implicit acceptance that anything other than a belief in innate gender identity is equivalent to being racist/homophobic/misogynist.

The implicit acceptance that anything other than a belief in innate gender identity is equivalent to being racist/homophobic/misogynist.

What I'm accepting Assassinated is that you may have been led to believe that they are equivalent by abusive TRAs shouting "bigot!" at you on Twitter, or perhaps ploppers on these threads hurling "transphobe!" before running off into the night.

I'm not expressing that I find the two equivalent.

Don't mistake my empathy for your perception of being viewed negatively as reinforcement that you are in fact viewed negatively.

No, I can see that you're neutral on whether holding a different belief is equivalent to racism/homophobia/misogyny, RatRolyPoly.

And there it is again. The implicit acceptance that anything other than a belief in innate gender identity is equivalent to being racist/homophobic/misogynist.

I used the comparison you'd given, in the context you gave them.

A liberal feminist to my core :)

Yes, that is what you did. Presumably you're as neutral on that as RatRolyPoly is?

@Jayceedove

"My views changed somewhat, as you will see, on seeing his appearance on This Morning, where it was clear he was struggling in the face of a Christian Charity using him to further their agenda."

Yes agree it was messy. And sad for all.I think he did what he did for good motives but it did not help anyone. And if it was an accident then that is not an issue but I think it was probably more than that.

@Desiderio

"However trans prisoners also have the choice to go the prison of their birth sex if they so wish. I imagine this is because trans men might feel at risk in men's prisons. Suddenly when their safety is at stake their identity might not seem so important after all. There are currently no trans men in men's prisons"

Saw Fox and Owl on tv talking about being non binary with Piers Morgan. But when Piers asked which prison would you go to Owl said Women's as she has a GRC.

@AssassinatedBeauty

"And there it is again. The implicit acceptance that anything other than a belief in innate gender identity is equivalent to being racist/homophobic/misogynist."

So true. It reminds me of the blasphemy laws on Pakistan. It's not just people who break the law but those who are accused of breaking the law.

C

I'be been on a thread (elsewhere) where a lesbian expresses perfectly sensible concerns and was made to kind of recant her views. It's all fucked up!

I know the conversation has moved on a bit but I find that image, and many like it, more confusing and over-simplified to the point of too inaccurate to be helpful. Calling intersex people "a combination of the two" is pretty much the opposite of what most intersex activist groups have been trying to get across and a very unhelpful way to portray us. Most DSDs only affect one sex or the other with many others affect each sex differently, most of us have no issue with our sex chromosomes, and only very few have ovotestes and even then there is no inbetween gametes. Intersex groups have asked not to be linked to trans activism both to help dissuade this idea that there is a correlation when there isn't (intersex people are no more likely to be dysphoric than anyone else, some of us just happen to be both) and because the language used does not work for us. DSDs are not a spectrum, not a combination of male and female, they are a group of specific disorders loosely put together. It's not a scale, there is no land between us, either one has a DSD or one doesn't, one either is intersex or one isn't. Saying DSDs mean I am a combination of male and female is like saying a woman who has her ovaries removed is now more male or a man with a vasectomy is more female. Parts of my reproductive system not developing properly during puberty does not make me less female or more male. Many of us would like the idea that we're a combination or in-between to stop. Humans are bimodal and some of us have DSDs which in no way makes sex a spectrum.

It reminds me of how often people say 1% of people are trans, ignoring that that number comes from how many people are estimated to have gender dysphoria and not how many of us identify as trans - yeah, I get why people do that as it is easier and catchier and for many people it won't matter, but it isn't giving an accurate picture and I don't think it's very helpful to those of us having our lives treated like that. The image doesn't even mention dysphoria which to me feels like an important basic part of discussing gender identity. I view the current push to erase dysphoria rather cynically - acting like it isn't there will make it a lot easier to cut the already abysmal services for dysphoric people which is a part of why people are buying stuff online - but then I don't think many of the things being pushed supposedly for our benefit or 'rights' have anything to do with making the lives of dysphoric people better, however we identify and whether or not we wish or are suitable for transition.

I also think it's concerning, the whole idea that gender identity is just what's in our heads and that's all that matters when so many young people are now self-medicating with internet bought hormones and blockers because "fuck the gatekeepers" when we know that hormones without therapy has a far worse end result and some dysphoric people are not suitable for transition for many reasons (I won't even get into the possible damage from binders I keep seeing encouraged, passing out being treated like a fucking badge of honour). I see people pretty much mock the idea that dysphoria is a real thing, that it's all just "cissexist bullshit" hoop they need to jump and putting diagnosis in a bunch of air quotes while discussing what surgeries they want to get and how much over the recommended amount of hormones they're taking to get whatever faster. It's leading to a lot of risky behaviours but I can see why, it's quite appealing if people around you keep telling you this will make you happy and your thoughts on your identity are all that matters. No amount of discussing the health risks is going to dissuade people that see this as hope - anything is worth that, I know I've been there but I had more sensible people around me and media wasn't yet on board. Really, I don't see how images like that help anyone understand much beyond buzzwords. I know I say it a lot on here, but dysphoric people and everyone else deserve much better than that.

Firstly, I'd defend your right to hold any view I disagree with. I would defend your right to state those views.

However, I do see those views spilling over into how some people are treated. Jaycee has disclosed a sexual assault in a thread in the Feminist section. Not a single poster has offered her acknowledgement, sympathy or a bit of humanity. That wouldn't happen if a natal man or woman disclosed a sexual assault.

So, people don't just hold those views, that use those views to dehumanise another person. The fact that they don't see her as a woman has allowed them to treat her as less than them. That's indefensible.

You haven't been in that thread in the Feminist section, I don't hold you responsible for the actions of those other women but I do offer you those actions as an example of what where thoughts that dehumanise, lead.

@AssassinatedBeauty, the above post was in reply to your post.

@Stillscreaming at least one poster has, perhaps you missed it. You would take the fact that those other women haven't responded in a way you consider appropriate, and take that to mean that the views those women also hold are indefensible.

Also, why does not thinking of a trans woman as a woman mean that you are dehumanising them?

@AssassinatedBeauty

To not acknowledge another human being's sexual assault and, in some cases, to respond to that disclosure with hostility, is indefensible.

Right. And that automatically invalidates any arguments made by the person who does that.

Decent people don't only treat those they think of as women with compassion, decent people treat all victims of sexual adult be they men, women or children with compassion.

Yes they do. It is totally wrong to ignore or minimise someone who has disclosed a sexual assault.

Italian, sadly I think I agree with you on the teacher. But I still hope he manages to extricate himself from that religious group who in my view are using him as a patsy to do their dirty work. It would be a shame for him to end up as their victim in a political game.