What kind of person jumps off a cliff with two children? **MNHQ warning: upsetting content**

[Leafyhouse]

I've been really shaken by that story about the woman stabbed at home, and the father found at the bottom of the cliff with 2 dead children, 10 and 7.

Their home is about 400 yards away from me. I also have 2 DS's, aged 8 and 10. It's just made me sick to the core. Police and forensic officers all over this lovely house, in a really nice area - and for what? Why would someone do that? Have your own problems, but why take the children?

Just reeling at the moment, am going to hug my kids extra tight tonight. This one's just so very close to home.

Some men feel they have to take their dcs with them when they commit suicide. There's been men who've done this before. It makes me feel utterly awful for those poor children.

Even if someone is mentally ill it doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for their actions. To negate culpability in criminal cases it has to be shown that the accused didn’t know what they were doing or if they did know that they didn’t know it was wrong. Very high bar

Evil, abusive murdering bastard.

Horrible case. I also have no sympathy for him.

I agree these cases are part of male violence pattern. At my first job I saw the scene photos of another family annihilator who'd killed his wife first (so she couldn't stop him) and then the children. He blew their heads off with a shotgun at close range. Those photos still haunt me about 20 years later.

What we as a society need to think about is how do we identify these people. There are often signs of violence or control and as others have said, it's often prompted by the woman finally making the decision to leave.

@SmashedMug I think for some women it's a different and dangerous type of denial....that she won't be next. That some illness,mental breakdown, motive must've caused all this. That as long as her partner doesn't have a mental illness,she managed his "stress",she "behaves", she won't be next. He might be abusive,and shout,and punch things and/or her and so on..but he's not THAT bad. There's no x,y,x so he'd never do that,she's safe,she won't be next...

They don't take their children with them, they murder their children.

@RebelRogue I think you're spot on there. It's a scary thought :(

This thread just shows the levels of ignorance that most people have on MH.

A guy murders his family, in what is likely a DV situation IMO and posters are bleating on about how he’s probably got some MH issues. He doesn’t deserve anyone’s pity. He’s killed his own children FGS.

IME it would be a mixture of the two things some posters are at loggerheads about.
A evil, controlling brute of an abuser no doubt. Usually in these cases, the man kills the children to inflict the worst pain imaginable on a mother. But this man had already taken the mother's life so she wouldn't have lived to know that pain.
Men who commit the ultimate domestic violence are usually far too narcissistic to take their own lives. The order of the killing and the suicide element lead me to believe that mental health has also played a part.
So very, very sad for the family left behind to have to somehow cope with this.

No sympathy for the murdering bastard at all. Family annihilators, who are mostly men, are control freaks who see their partners and children as possessions to do what they like with.

It's statistically highly probable that this was an escalation of a domestic violence situation. The man likely did this as the ultimate display of control/power.

The only victims here are the wife and the children.

He may have had some MH issues. That's an aside. And very different to the reasons he's killed his wife and two young sons.

Insisu this, from a psychiatrist in an article I read earlier states that 'more than 80% committed or tried to commit suicide after killing their children' in
regards to 'family annihilators'.

yes indeed family annihilators are overwhelmingly men and see their family as possessions. But why? Why does this happen and how can we change society to stop it from happening?

People are up in arms about labelling the ability to kill your own children as a mental health issue, because of the fact that most people with mental health problems are non-violent and don't kill their families. This is of course true.

But the majority of men are non-violent and don't kill their families either, so it isn't any more or less reasonable to label it as a male violence issue.

For me it is obvious that some small fraction of men clearly need a much better upbringing or more support with not becoming the type of person that annihilates their family. I don't care if you label it MH or men's violence as long as this actually leads to something changing.

Labelling it as one off evil monster behaviour is totally counter productive because as so many people have said, it isn't a one off.

Why are people arguing about this? You don't KNOW. None of use know. He may be mentally ill, he may be a domestic abuser, he may be both or neither. We don't know.
Have some fucking respect and don't use it as another thing to bolster your own self importance on the internet..

How does discussing this make any of us more important on the internet, blastomama?

And we do know he's a domestic abuser if he killed his wife and kids. Murder is pretty much the definition of abuse.

It isn't and you don't.

"Why is it almost always men who do this?" Because it's almost always men who commit violent criminal acts.

My sympathy is with his wife and children.

Highly likely he was controlling and violent before this. Possibly pre-meditated too. Mother's Day on Sunday.

"and should have professional intervention." What do you mean by this? Because therapy doesn't work. My dad is abusive. He's been treated for mental illness, stopped drinking etc - still just as nasty. Big reason my mum didn't leave was because he told her he would find us and kill us all. I don't doubt he would have.

While we still blame women for staying, for not reporting, for "provoking" these men it won't change.

I also find the court system re contact after divorce/separation where DV is involved shockingly bad. "He never hit the kids so he still gets unsupervised contact" never mind he battered, strangled, punched, set alight to, verbally and emotionally abused their mother in front of or at best in the hearing of the children.

I know of a case where the father served prison time for attempted murder of the mother - while the DC were present - still got unsupervised contact when he got out.

"No one seems to know them or seen them in the area." Yes new to the area apparently - I wonder if that was due to his being too well known to authorities in their previous home?

Mycatsapirate - thank you for sharing that. I know you weren't asking for sympathy but I'm sorry you went through that.

What needs to change? How we (as a society) raise our children. That it's not ok to BE violent and it's ok NOT to want to be a victim. Grass roots level. That boy pulling girls pigtails on the playground? Needs to be stopped and told it's wrong to do. The girl needs to be told it's ok to tell him to stop, to tell on him. And DEFINITELY no "aww he likes you" crap!

This article has made me realise how far I've come from where I was and I'm in a better place to say this than ever before.

PLEASE don't say this was due to MH issues. When I was leaving exDH during his mental breakdown (I'm not evil, it was 3yrs of hell and unacceptable behaviour and the kids needed out) I became obsessed with family annihilators. The poor lady with the boys in the attic is remotely linked to us and the more people spouted "it's MH issues that drives them to it". The more afraid and paranoid I became, seriously damaging the initial relationship with ex (now on the mend).

When in reality my mild mannered but slightly selfish and temperamental ex had never shown any signs of control or DV.

We need to see these murderers for what they are and not blame MH for these actions. A breakdown would never have made my ex suddenly turn killer but in the fear of the moment you just can't see it when everyone tells you that is the cause!

Are they his kids? The impression I got from BBC news (and in oarticular this sentence “thought to be the woman's sons, ”) is that they are her kids but not his.

If he is step dad then I suspect the odds of it being DV rather than mental health goes up.

@blastomama well we can make an educated guess. Because there is a pattern and a profile for family annihilators and while there are always outliers ,like with everything else... if you hear hoofs it's most likely horses.

And even if he is an outlier, there are many more that aren't. Way too many..that kill their children and partners. It's way too common and nothing changes. And it's scary and rage inducing . That's why people talk about it.

I also find the court system re contact after divorce/separation where DV is involved shockingly bad.

Sadly very true.

The idea that a man can be physically abusive or emotionally abusive to his partner, and yet be a great Dad....makes no sense. And it makes it harder to walk away from DV. Because at least if you stay, you can be with your children.

But if you leave, you know that he'll have unsupervised contact with your children. The nightmare isn't over, as he's still there. Still influencing. Still punishing.

And this is why it needs to be made so much easier for women to leave an abusive relationship, for women's refuges to be properly funded, for women to be encouraged to report incidents of abuse, including coercive control, which is often part of DV, for women to be believed much more readily, and safeguards put in place even if there is no 'evidence'; it is such a scary thing to let the cat out of the bag and report DV, especially when you fear ending up with a 'your word against his' scenario. The very nature of CC makes it nigh on impossible to prove yet it is down to the terrified victim to provide evidence thereof.

I think this whole thread should be deleted

No-one knows anything about what happened. It just happened.

And it's going round in circles anyway

And anyone who tells me to 'bore off' for expressing this opinion can do likewise

Personally I think if there's strong evidence of DV supervised contact at most. If there's been a conviction - no contact.