Does it worry you that six WOMEN are convicted of rape?

[loveyouradvice]

Mail today..... about how far more sex crimes are being committed by women....including six rapes.

To commit rape you have to have a penis - that is the definition of rape (intentionally penetrating vagina, anus or mouth with his penis without consent)

So at least six of these crimes committed by women - and probably far more - have been committed by men who identify as women.....

This really worries me

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5465541/Record-number-women-convicted-sex-crimes-Britain.html

Walkingdead there's a difference between being forceably penetrated by a penis, and being forced to penetrate someone with a penis. They are not the same thing, so why should they be lumped together? Sex is different for nen and women due to biological differences.
That doesn't mean that the impact on the victim should be disregarded, of course it should be considered, along with all other relevant factors.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Cecilia Dhejne, Paul Lichtenstein, Marcus Boman, Anna L. V. Johansson, Niklas Långström, Mikael Landén

Crime rate
Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

Gender differences
Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

This was copied and pasted from the original paper. I hope people will look it up so we can have an honest debate. If I have interpreted it wrong, show me how. But please don't muddy the waters by referring to a cut and paste interview job by a party with an obvious agenda.

Yadnbu op. Self ID is batshit on so many levels. Welcome to the new world of fake stats.

sagamartha
I have quoted the entire section on 'crime rate'. It really was that short. I have quoted the second of only two paragraphs in the 'gender differences' section. The first referred to suicidal behaviour.

The rest of the results referred to mortality, psychiatric morbidity, substance abuse and accidents.

The concern is that crime figures may not be being reported correctly

If they were transparent then no one would be concerned

They are not transparent

Now I look closer at the title of the paper, I can see it refers to transsexuals who have undergone surgery, those we would expect to most closely resemble women in behaviour. Yet now the trans umbrella has been widened massively, unashamedly including sexual fetishists and others we would expect to resemble men more closely in behaviour.

I have quoted the entire section on 'crime rate'. It really was that short. I have quoted the second of only two paragraphs in the 'gender differences' section. The first referred to suicidal behaviour

You missed out this:

The research was for 24 years.
There were 194 MTF in that study.

There were 8 (yes, EIGHT) violent crimes in that 24 year period,

The researchers said:

Any criminal conviction during follow-up was counted; specifically, violent crime was defined as homicide and attempted homicide, aggravated assault and assault, robbery, threatening behaviour, harassment, arson, or any sexual offense

Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment,[11], [41] and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome.

Second, transsexualism is a rare condition and Sweden is a small country (9.2 million inhabitants in 2008). Hence, despite being based on a comparatively large national cohort and long-term follow-
up, the statistical power was limited

It's surprsing to hear how confident people are quoting that MTFs are a big danger to women based on data over 24 years where 8 violent crimes were carried out. Anyone would think that was not enough data to draw any conclusions.

Yet now the trans umbrella has been widened massively, unashamedly including sexual fetishists and others we would expect to resemble men more closely in behaviour

That I agree with. Which is why definitions are important.

noeffingidea
Man A has penetrative sex with woman B against her wishes = rape.
Woman B has penetrative sex with man A against his wishes = exactly the same thing.
Same people, same act of intercourse, only difference is who is withholding consent. imo both are rape and the law should reflect this.

So a FTM transgender man who has had surgery to create a penis would be able to commit rape?
The definition of rape needs updating, being raped by a woman or raped with something other than a penis is just as bad, if anything worse because your assault will be judged less serious by society and you wont be able to say you were raped or that the monster who did it to you is a rapist.
Equality is for both sexes, that means crimes commited by women should be judged the same as women, they shouldnt get lighter sentances for commiting the same crime as a man.

I think my post above yours is very relevant here sagamartha. It is easier to respect a view when it is argued consistently from the start. You don't seem to be able to defend your earlier statements so now you are changing your approach. The study looked at post-op transsexuals (does that include genital surgery?). It is limited in that respect. We need More up-to-date studies.

If the definition of rape was updated to apply equally to men and women then all you would need to do is record how many men/women/trans men and women are committing the crime separately, so they are not all lumped together. A much simpler and fairer way to apply the law.

It is easier to respect a view when it is argued consistently from the start

I have quoted the cavets from the study, the interview with the author, a link to the Reddit and the fact that there is no data significant data from 1989 - 2003.

There is NO evidence - as the OP said - that MTFs are

A real concern as men who transition still have the same (or higher) level of violence towards women

But it's an oft repeated statistic.

Thank you for explaining noeffingidea

I think... as has been pointed out higher up the thread ... the main challenges are:

• how WIDE the transumbrella has now become, so that there will be men "transitioning" by purely stating they want to live as women i.e. self identifying - with no need for hormones or surgery, opening the field up to serious perverts .... and these will be counted and treated as women

• that opportunities for MEN identifying as MEN to assault/abuse women in previously safe spaces will increase dramatically as men will now be able to enter these without question

I totally agree the need for more research - like many I am finding my feet in this challenging area. And am only sad that our politicians / social institutions are rushing to implement this rather than going more slowly with time to think and reflect on unintended consequences...... especially for women and transwomen

A real concern as men who transition still have the same (or higher) level of violence towards women - and there is no way of measuring this apart from rape once they are recorded (as they already are) as women

How did you measure it in the first place if you can't measure it?

Man A has penetrative sex with woman B against her wishes = rape.
Woman B has penetrative sex with man A against his wishes = exactly the same thing.
Same people, same act of intercourse, only difference is who is withholding consent. imo both are rape and the law should reflect this.

I understand the need for men to be able to report sexual assault committed by women but what happens in your above scenario if Woman B reports Man A for rape and Man A is legally able to say no actually Woman B raped me as a defence.

Given that it's quite common for domestic abusers to accuse their victims of abuse when the authorities turn up I think the same would happen if rape became a legal two way thing.

Regarding these statistics in the OP the biggest issue is that with the category of women opened up to include men they are rendered meaningless and don't tell us anything. Maybe there is an issue with an increase in female offending or maybe there isn't. How are we supposed to tell?

Whilst the 142 crimes committed by women are 142 too many, there were over 10,000 committed by men. I would question the motives of the Paper that Supported the Blackshirts in highlighting this.

I agree @forallthesaints No one should report news I don't want to acknowledge either.

A real concern as men who transition still have the same (or higher) level of violence towards women

But it's an oft repeated statistic.

Why wouldn't they have the same?

@Springiscoming I think the point is that we don't know. A statistical rise in the number of women committing a crime that nearly always requires a penis could be due to more women committing that crime, or it could be due to the definition of "woman" now including some who have a penis. I

I don't think Crime stats differentiate between women who have a penis and those who dont.

Why wouldn't they have the same

Do all women commit the same level of crime?

Or are some women less likely to commit certain types of crime? Some groups of women are more likely to commit certain types of crime compared to the average woman and some groups are less likely.

There are differences between transwomen and men - even if people say that transwomen are a subset of men, that implies there is something different about transwomen compared to the average man.

So if a transwoman is different to the average man (and especially if they believe they are more like women), it seems reasonable to suggest that issues like crime rate, suicide rate, mental wellbeing etc are also different to the average man.

Just like any group within a group have different rates of convictions compared to the larger group they are within.