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Original poster

Cultural misappropriation and hair

585 replies

meandthem · 03/03/2018 01:33

Am I being unreasonable to object to ethnicity being a factor in respect of what hairstyle choices women are "allowed"? I am pissed of that it now seems acceptable for some styles to be considered cultural misappropriation. What happened to the sisterhood and feminism and women's right to do what the hell we want with our hair!

OP posts:
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13
Riverside2 · 03/03/2018 19:54

Kim claimed she had invented them?

Speedy someone saying, in the privacy of their own home, that they don't like hair that way - is not the same as an organisation expecting us to remove all hair frizz.

IllustriouslyIllogical · 03/03/2018 19:56

I think people wearing characatures of an oppressed culture as a some sort of fashion statement is pretty distasteful (even if not deliberately disrespectful).

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I believe it's perfectly possible to like a picture, style, hairstyle without giving it any more thought than that..

What's your view on celtic band tattoos, chinese/japanese symbol tattoos, tattoos of black people on white people??

You have no idea what someones motives are for doing what they do & you have absolutely no right to judge anyone for doing it.

heateallthebuns · 03/03/2018 20:03

I am white and I may be being ignorant here. Reading through people's comments about having to straighten your Afro hair for job interviews and being favored by older relatives for being a bit paler looking. I thought, if more white women wore corn braids or dreadlocks or Afros and they became more 'mainstream' could that help with acceptance and prejudice generally? Maybe I'm completely off the mark coming from a position of white privilege.

PerrieGrey · 03/03/2018 20:06

I don't think people wearing certain hairstyles falls under the category of cultural appropriation. The only time I feel it may is in regards to dreadlocks, which is a religious hairstyle. But even so, I'm not sure of the origins. Cultural appropriation to me is someone wearing an Indian outfit or Afro wig to a fancy dress party (imagine being a young girl with Afro hair seeing it worn as a costume). Wearing it because they like it and it suits them however? I just don't see a problem. Just my two cents however and I do appreciate that opinions are massively divided on this one!

VladmirsPoutine · 03/03/2018 20:11

white privilege

This is the absolute crux of the issue. This.

ReanimatedSGB · 03/03/2018 20:13

I saw this article this morning, which seems to showcase rather well one of the biggest problems with this argument which is, basically, stupid white Americans doing a big 'oh boohoo, we white people are so terrible' while demonstrating spectacular ignorance of anywhere outside of America. FFS even in America you get people banging on about their (actual) roots and heritage from their Italian/Irish/Dutch/English/Swedish great-great-grandparents...
Yes, there are enough trust-fund, gap-year, gullible wide-eyed white kids who 'appropriate' other cultures because they are desperate to be anything other than naice Edmund and Emily from Hampshire, but there are also loads of white kids who listen to hip hop or reggae and want their hair braided, in UK cities, because that's what their Black and mixed-heritage mates do.
And there are plenty of people making their living by braiding tourists' hair, or giving them tattoos, or selling them clothes and jewellery, who regard that as legitimate trade, not fuelling appropriation.
It's complicated, but people who a) assume the worst if they see someone wearing something that they think is 'wrong' and b) feel entitled to harass that person about it may well be part of the problem. It is, as ever, more tiresome when it's virtue-signalling white men berating (usually younger, lower-status) white women on behalf of BAME people.

Clem7 · 03/03/2018 20:20

IllustriouslyIllogical - would it be okay to wear an overtly racist image because you think it looks nice? Or could that still be inappropriate, offensive or harmful?

Here in Canada, we set up the residential school system with the specific purpose of removing indigenous people from their cultures, assimilating them into white Canadian culture, to try and stamp out those ‘inferior’ cultures. Children were forcibly separated from their families, deprived of their ancestral language and cultural practices and exposed to physical and sexual abuse. Mortality rates were high and I don’t have to go far to find a graveyard of unmarked graves for unidentifiable victims of the system. The last school closed down in the mid 90s and the effects will likely be felt for generations to come.

But it’s okay for us to use their cultures and identities (and parodies of the same) as a fashion accessory? Not even slightly distasteful to you?

IllustriouslyIllogical · 03/03/2018 20:31

would it be okay to wear an overtly racist image because you think it looks nice?

What's an overtly racist image though? I bet you have a different idea of what qualifies to me.

Please give some examples that fit in the context we're talking about - i.e. something that an African person would wear but would be overtly racist if worn by a White person. Or something that a Pakistani would wear that would be overtly racist if worn by an African etc. etc.

IllustriouslyIllogical · 03/03/2018 20:33

Not even slightly distasteful to you?

No, if it's something they'd wear on their arm, wall etc. then not at all.

Certcert · 03/03/2018 20:38

heateallthebuns

I hear what you are saying. But I think it's the fact that something should have to go through "white culture", to be accepted, is a problem for many.

Speedy85 · 03/03/2018 20:40

Speedy someone saying, in the privacy of their own home, that they don't like hair that way - is not the same as an organisation expecting us to remove all hair frizz.

Well obviously not. I didn’t say that it was. Given that I work in just about as non-racist an organisation as I can imagine and am not yet in any position of power in any event all I can do is call out any instances of racism - subtle or overt - that I see in my personal life. If I did hear anyone saying something wrong at work so would absolutely call it out (but can’t imagine it happening honestly where I work). Other white people who are in positions of power need to step up and use their influence, and generally we need to help each other understand the complex history around Afro textured hair and the pressures that black women face.

Certcert · 03/03/2018 20:41

Cultural appropriation to me is someone wearing an Indian outfit or Afro wig

Agreed, because then the Indian outfit, or afro, then becomes part of the 'punchline'.

Clem7 · 03/03/2018 20:44

IllustriouslyIllogical - do you know many indigenous Americans with ‘sexy squaw’ tattoos? I can’t claim to have statistics to hand, but sexy squaw tattoos and costumes seem to be worn predominantly or exclusively by white people.

LaLaLanded · 03/03/2018 21:00

Speedy85 Good Hair was a brilliant documentary. Taught me so much about my own attitudes towards myself and other black women. Every person of any race who calls things out is contributing - it’s a journey.

heateallthebuns I understand your thought process but white people shouldn’t have to adopt something in order to make it acceptable for the ethnic minorities who originated it. Black people’s afros for example are not a style choice.

Original poster
meandthem · 03/03/2018 21:00

Vladimirs, glad you were able to enter the debate. You let yourself down very badly with your display of puerile sneering arrogance last night, for which you were (rightly) called out on by others. If you are fair skinned and blonde (as you have stated) it sounds like you are buying into white privilege far more than me, as an ethnically Kurdish fair skinned woman. Bit of an own goal scored there.....

OP posts:
heateallthebuns · 03/03/2018 21:02

Yep understand I didn't think of that. I see your point!

Speedy85 · 03/03/2018 21:02

Please give some examples that fit in the context we're talking about - i.e. something that an African person would wear but would be overtly racist if worn by a White person.

I guess this isn’t cultural appropriation (because it is not part of black culture) but how would you feel about a white person with a gollywog tattoo? I think it would be totally unacceptable, but if a black person got it I would think it was up to them if they want to try and turn it into a positive image or sonething.

This person did get one, although if the story behind it is true it was due to a rather unfortunate mix up:
www.itwasntmedia.co.uk/2017/07/southend-man-asks-tattooist-for-guy.html?m=1

ReanimatedSGB · 03/03/2018 21:02

Is Kim Kardashian (in cultural terms) 'white', though? I just Googled her (because I know fuck all about celebrity culture) and her father was Armenian.

PerrieGrey · 03/03/2018 21:07

@ReanimatedSGB it's not about being white or not white. I think people are talking about appropriation of black people when they talk about her (correct me if I'm wrong?). By saying 'isn't she Armenian' you're basically saying anyone can appropriate just not white people, and because she's Armenian it's ok. Anyway, I think I'm gonna leave this thread as I see it continuing round in circles!

PerrieGrey · 03/03/2018 21:08

@ReanimatedSGB also, you can't be white, or any race 'in cultural terms'. You're either white or you're not. You can't be culturally white. Culture and race are entirely different.

PerrieGrey · 03/03/2018 21:10

@Certcert exactly. Wearing your hair in braids however because you think it's beautiful... is that appropriation? I'd argue not.

LaLaLanded · 03/03/2018 21:10

reanimated as part of my job I’ve scoured for a list of what ‘counts’ as BAME/an ethnic minority etc. There’s no official list - which means this is a grey area.

My thoughts are that it a) matters how one self identifies and b) that you self identify consistently and c) that you act consistently in a way that supports what you self identify as

That’s just my opinion but... in the Kim K situation she appears to be inconsistent. Not a bad thing - as has been stated she’s in a nuanced situation. She’s mixed race, her ethnicity coming from a racial group that not many people recognise as a minority and has mixed race kids.

LaLaLanded · 03/03/2018 21:13

Oh I notice reanimated used the word ‘cultural’ - doesn’t change my answer but interesting. I am ‘culturally’ white-ish but physically black. Does society treat me ask black? Yes. Does my cultural privelage allow me to surpass some of that? Yes. Intersectuality!

Is Kim K treated as white? I would say yes - apart from when she calls out that she isn’t 100% (see previous post, who knows).

LaLaLanded · 03/03/2018 21:16

Last thing: Armenians are not black. All ethnic minorities are not a homogenous mass. It is possible for one ethnic minority to culturally appropriate another. Another layer.

VladmirsPoutine · 03/03/2018 21:20

@meandthem Sorry mum, I didn't mean to 'let myself down very badly'. I'll try to do better next time. I'll order a card and flowers to apologise.

The premise of your OP was ridiculous and I stand by that. I only came back to have a sensible discussion about it to put across why you were being ridiculous. It appears you are still missing the point. If the point was in Australia you would be in Jupiter. (In other words, very far removed from it).

I rejoined to make a sensible argument, seems you are unable to. The idea that I'm "buying into 'white privilege" is hilarious. What's even more ridiculous is that you accuse me of buying into 'white privilege' more than you. I'm not sure where to even begin with that ridiculous statement.

I'm glad you were also able to (re)enter the debate. Too bad you came back though as there was a genuine decent debate being had prior to your return. Ho-hum.

And your last post makes no sense. None what-so-ever:

f you are fair skinned and blonde (as you have stated) it sounds like you are buying into white privilege far more than me, as an ethnically Kurdish fair skinned woman. Bit of an own goal scored there.....

That means absolutely nothing.

Enjoy your thread. I hope I have at least contributed something worthwhile. Unlike you.

I'll leave the thread now.