Cultural misappropriation and hair

[meandthem]

Am I being unreasonable to object to ethnicity being a factor in respect of what hairstyle choices women are "allowed"? I am pissed of that it now seems acceptable for some styles to be considered cultural misappropriation. What happened to the sisterhood and feminism and women's right to do what the hell we want with our hair!

Perrie: I think there are some ethnicities where some people would say [group] count as 'white' and some people would say the same group count as 'minority ethnic'. Irish Travelers, for example.
LaLa - I used to do door-to-door market research and had to ask people what ethnic group they identified as (I had a long list but still, given where I live, had to tick the [other, please specify] box quite a lot.)

LaLaLanded - surely it matters more (or at least equally) what other people see you as - in that the prejudices that people have shape how they deal with you. my sibling and I ended up looking really different (genetics is a funny thing) and they get all the racist stick and I get none. We would both tick the white box though.

Speedy, it read to me that you dh commented he didn't like a certain type of hair and you told him about how it was natural, which seemed odd to me because he was expressing a personal opinion at home. He wasn't someone who needed hair type explained to him as part of employment training.

VladmirsPoutine don't go from there thread just because someone wants to bring up yesterday's news. We were all having a good debate

this*

grasspigeons yes, it matters how you self identify but also how others identify you.

At the end of the day: you have control over the former but not the latter.

That’s why it’s important to be able to identify for yourself. Otherwise you’re reacting to what a systemically fucked society is TELLING you, you are.

I spent years being TOLD I was black, mixed, should be lighter, should be darker, should go home. It was only when I took control and then acted consistently with that (took years; ongoing process) that I even felt I had a voice.

Society still identifies everyone racially. It’s how you act with and against that, that is... well important to me anyway.

The Kim K analogy again - she is not consistent with how she identifies and how she puts her racial identity out in the world. This is why the hairstyle was problematic. Which is not actually about her hairstyle.

Lalalanded "It was only when I took control and then acted consistently with that (took years; ongoing process) that I even felt I had a voice. " what did you do to act consistently?

do you know many indigenous Americans with ‘sexy squaw’ tattoos?

To be fair, I don't know anyone with a sexy squaw tattoo. A quick google produces images like this though -

You'll notice that the last one is a Pirate - indicating that people tend to like a bit of freedom & artistic licence when it comes to expressing themselves.

None of those images are "Overtly Racist", or even plain old "Racist". I honestly think people need to chill out.

What's your background anyway Clem7 - any particular culture or are you just "offended on behalf of".......

Speedy, sorry, a PS ...it just feels, to me, and yes I'm just one person, that racism has gotten worse since things like my hair type became a cultural topic. Like I can't just get on with my life because yet another factor has been thrown into a political pot full of "let's categorise everything we can".

but how would you feel about a white person with a gollywog tattoo?

But that's the same as asking how I'd feel about someone with a KKK tattoo or a swastika - that's not what we're talking about.

A better example would be how would I feel about someone with a tattoo of Martin Luther King when they're white - and my answer would be "the same as I would for a black person with a tattoo of Martin Luther King",,,,,

Speedy, it read to me that you dh commented he didn't like a certain type of hair and you told him about how it was natural, which seemed odd to me because he was expressing a personal opinion at home. He wasn't someone who needed hair type explained to him as part of employment training.

It was more that he was saying he didn’t like the way it looked and couldn’t understand why they weren’t wearing it straight like (almost every other) black woman who appears on TV, and then we had a little chat where I explained about black women having to use all kinds of horrible chemicals, spend lots of time/money getting straight hair to cater to those kind of preferences. I think natural hair is beautiful and dreadlocks can look ace (I especially like Zendaya’s hair). It probably hasn’t changed his underlying preference but hopefully it made him think about the fact that it’s not fair to expect everyone to cater to those preferences.

I think that it’s important that we have these kind of conversations amongst white people, regardless of what the other person does as a job. Whilst employment training is of course helpful, I think we need to educate the population as a whole and people have been explaining in this thread that they have had plenty of insensitive comments from people other than managers. Also, you never know if the person you’re talking to might end up in a position where they are able to influence.

What's your background anyway Clem7 - any particular culture or are you just "offended on behalf of"......
I’m white, so if you would rather hear directly from an indigenous woman on be harmfulness of the sexy squaw sterotype I’m sure there is plenty of commentary available and I’ll gladly recommend Lisa Monchalin’s ‘The Colonial Problem: An Indigenous Perspective on Crime and Injustice in Canada’. It even gives a nod to how inaccurate, sexualized portrayals of indegenous women puts them in the same category as pirates and alike.

But that's the same as asking how I'd feel about someone with a KKK tattoo or a swastika - that's not what we're talking about.

I personally don’t think there is that much difference between a sexy squaw and a gollywog. Both are seen as demeaning characatures to people from those races.

I do think young women wearing braids is a long way from a man with a sexy squaw tattoo - I don't conflate the two.

Check out this Athenian guy from about 600 BC being culturally insensitive.

Agree with both of those comments.

Speedy and the navigator I mean

Have enjoyed the thread enormously - amazing response for a "ridiculous" premise! Comments have obviously transcended the original issue of hair, but that is no bad thing and understandable in the context. Appreciate your apology Vladimir, seem to have hit a nerve with you somehow, but hey I am sure you can deal with it. Navigator I share a lot of your perspective and Cert I love your straightforward statement that you do your hair pink or green or whatever, because you just like it. That's the message for my daughter - and she won't be wearing a depiction of our family tree on her back to explain her "entitlement" or otherwise to any particular colour or style.

The Ancient Greeks did rather a lot of borrowing from the Egyptians BSJohnson. They're probably not the best go to for a dreads are European and not copied off black people argument!

meandthem, it's been a great thread. I know I've learnt a lot from listening to others' view points

Beetlejizz
Agreed but the whole thing about pointing out that ancient civilisations wore their hair in braids/corn rows is that we as humans emulate eachother, copy eachother, dress, wear our hair and act in certain ways to be part of a group. It’s been going on since time and memoriam.

Every culture - at least up until recently - has/ had rules about who can and can’t wear certain garments or their hair in a certain way etc. This is dictated amongst other things by rank, marital status and social standing. We live in a different era or at least in the western world, where rules have been relaxed and to a larger degree therefore this has been left behind.

Those, who wear specific garments do so for their work ie uniforms or to be part of a team/dance class etc. In consequence, it does seem alien in the West for a cultural grouping to tell another grouping they can’t wear their hair in a certain way. Looking at it from a wider anthropological POV, is doing so not social regression, as opposed to progression? Especially considering that braiding isn’t a new invention.

That said, many groupings are fighting against attempts at equality and harmony. Society doesn’t like to be seen as one homogenous group. The pendulum seems once again to be swinging from more centrist and moderate to more defined social groupings, such as the far right resurgence. And this resurgence is before society has even got to grips with anything sembling equality. This is truly a tragedy.

So yes, it is so much more than hair. However, I think hair as a symbol to illustrate what is wrong with society as a whole doesn’t work.

The only time I feel it may is in regards to dreadlocks, which is a religious hairstyle

The majority of people with locs are not Rastafarians.
If they were the Rastafarian faith would be up their at the top of the Religion Charts.
There are white Rastafarians but that is patently ridiculous (I am talking about white people with white heritage and not Jamaican)

@TheFirstMrsDV I know a white Rastafarian who has white Christian parents. He lived in Jamaica for 12 years and takes his religion very seriously so I don't think it's true to say that it is a ridiculous concept. If people truly believe in the god they pray to, who are we to call them ridiculous because of the colour of their skin?

Who fucking cares for starters ?

Secondly if you can’t see that it’s galling for white women who get more work and contracts to ‘use’ the hairstyles of black women who often get less work and contracts ......

Stupid post and inflammatory

I do believe someone may not have rtft