I don't know how I feel about abortion anymore

[sirlee66]

I've always been very pro-choice. A woman's body. A woman's right to choose.

I'm currently 34 weeks pregnant with my first and now I think my thoughts are changing.

I believe the cut off is 24 weeks? There was a lovely lady on here the other day whose waters broke and she gave birth to a baby girl at 25 weeks! If a baby can survive that early... It just seems...wrong!

Maybe the cut off could be lowered. I started feeling flutters at about 15 weeks so maybe before then.

I don't know what the answer is. I still feel really strongly that ultimately, the mother should decide but I just can't get past babies surviving outside the womb at the same age as a baby that could be aborted.

Maybe it's just pregnancy hormones. I also can't stop think about the poor women who have to make that decision. It must be so awful and I just want to give them a big hug.

I guess my question is, AIBU to not really know how I feel about it?

@Susan I didn't mean to give that impression. Of course it is harrowing for the woman, and not taken lightly.
But to perform a late stage surgical abortion is also harrowing as a doctor. It is a very uncomfortable aspect of medicine that lots of doctors dislike, but have to perform, unless they conscientiously object, which is another issue.
Fair enough about the surgeries you mention.
I do think abortion is a very sensitive subject in comparison to any of those.

The forced birth movement in Ireland talk about Down Syndrome in Iceland a lot and some of that misinformation leaks out. Here's a mathematician's take on the figures:

www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2017/11/28/lets-talk-about-iceland/

@starlightafar - I agree.

Sadly in the case I outlined contraceptive is available it’s just my SIL doesn’t like it. It’s just one of those things I won’t know the answer to and probably best to not speak about to her. All hell broke loose the last time someone did that.

babies can survive (generally with extreme disabilities) even if they are born very prematurely i'd be interested to see that stats that show the majority of very prem babies have extreme disabilities and your definition of extreme.

Re deadline for babies with disabilities, there is none. They go from using abortion to early induction and if you go to term will stand back and not help / offer only palliative care depending on the medical issue despite intervention being proved quite logically to improve outcomes

From a news article: in Iceland, almost 100% of women terminate pregnancies with a down's diagnosis. In Denmark, 98 percent of pregnancies with a Down syndrome diagnosis are terminated

So what? What is your problem with that?

I had a termination at 10 weeks. I was all set to have the baby and so excited.
But a month in my brother hung himself. It set off ptsd hugely for me (I found him on a pervious attempt when I was 7, luckily I was in time to give him another 12 years) I had survivors guilt, I couldn't cope, I wanted to join him and I started to self harm by burning myself to feel something. I had no help. No support apart from dp at the time, nothing. But dp then encouraged me as he didn't want a child growing up where his or hers mom was so vulnerable and spiralling into a huge depression. Really.. That was the best choice despite me still being depressed about it and still regretting it and thinking about that baby daily. I was 10 weeks and 5 days.
Truthfully, I think it should be for medical reasons. Mental or physical. Or if there's a problem. Some women I know (from school) had them as a result for being stupid and choosing not to use contraception. So a form of birth control if you will as she had 4.
But honestly, I wish people would leave this topic alone. If it doesn't interfere with you, then let the woman who's going through it decide what she wants to do. It's not your choice. Not your body and you aren't in her shoes.
The decisions aren't taken lightly a lot of the time and they aren't nice to go through

Honestly, pregnancy has made me even more pro-choice. I can’t imagine having to go through all of this without even wanting the baby. And being forced to give birth at the end of it.

Nothing wrong with women choosing not to continue a pregnancy if the child has Down's syndrome. My child has ASD and I wouldn't be able to cope with another child with complex additional needs. In my first pregnancy I'd have thought differently, but sometimes you have to prioritise the children you already have.

Luckily DS is generally caught early, way before any pregnancy could be deemed viable.

Nothing wrong with women choosing not to continue a pregnancy if the child has Down's syndrome.

Exactly. Maybe some of the pro-lifers would like to volunteer to care for children and adults with Down's syndrome. The scary thing for parents of children with additional needs is what happens to your child when you die? We don't live in a society with a great support network and it's getting worse by the day. I would definitely choose not to continue a Down's pregnancy because I couldn't think of anything worse than my child not being cared for properly after I was gone.

In between each abortion she has gone on to have a child which has never made any sense to any of us.

Which is exactly why no-one else should be making the choice for her.

Reggae

Agree when I was pregnant with dc5 I felt even more pro choice and had an amino to check she was ok. No way was I bringing a disabled child into the world for older siblings to cope with after my death.

My choice. Thankfully she was ok but I would definatly have aborted if there was a problem.

I do wish people would fuck off eith their personal judgments on another woman’s body choices.

I don't like the idea of abortions beyond 12 weeks especially when there are so many people desperate to have children - it would seem better to have more babies to put up for adoption

I’m quite possibly infertile and absolutely desperate for a baby, painfully so but it is absolutely not my right, nor anyone else’s, to decide when a woman can have a termination. Why should someone who’s 14 weeks pregnant, not be allowed to terminate an unwanted pregnancy because I can’t have one to begin with?!

And I wish people would stop bandying around adoption, it is so unbelievably not that easy to just give up a child like that. Wether you wanted to continue with the pregnancy or not, it is just not that easy

It’s interesting that you feel that way. I was always pro-choice but after having my wanted and very healthy child, I became even more so, not less.

@SilentlyScreamingAgain awesome link!!

@sleepingstandingup - this is for you:

• 50% of premature babies born before the 26th week of gestation are disabled, a quarter severely so. (Fowler GA. Preemie problems: the sobering statistics. US News World Reports 2000; vol 129: pp56.)

• Of children born before 26 weeks' gestation, results in 241 of the surviving children at six years (early school age) indicate a high level of disability as follows:

• 22% severe disability (defined as cerebral palsy but not walking, low cognitive scores, blindness, profound deafness)

• 24% moderate disability (defined as cerebral palsy but walking, IQ/cognitive scores in the special needs range, lesser degree of visual or hearing impairment)

• 34% mild disability (defined as low IQ/cognitive score, squint, requiring glasses)

Cognitive and neurological impairment is common at school age amongst extremely preterm children. [N Engl J Med 2005; 352: 9-19.]

Survival Rates:
Babies born at 23 weeks have a 17% chance of survival
Babies born at 24 weeks have a 39% chance of survival
Babies born at 25 weeks have a 50% chance of survival
From 32 weeks onwards, most babies are able to survive with the help of medical Technology [EPICure data]

From this website: www.preemiesurvival.org/info/

This is from another website:
In the largest study to date of babies born at 22 to 25 weeks of pregnancy and followed through early school age, researchers found 41% have severe or moderate mental impairment at 6 years of age, compared with only 2% of their peers who were born full term.
Even more disturbing, experts say, is the finding that only about 20% of the children born extremely prematurely had no evidence of mental or developmental disability by age 6." WebMD

@Twocatsonebaby
I'm so sorry for your loses.

I feel the same way as the OP. I was told at 23 weeks that my baby was missing part of its brain and I should abort. It wasn’t in the UK and I was told I could abort in the UK much later than 24 weeks. I was told 28 was still OK.

I had to think about it long and hard. I had a lot of pressure on me from family. In the end I decided I couldn’t terminate. I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. I had the baby and there was nothing wrong with him when he was born. As a result I didn’t have any more DC because I just couldn’t go through that again.

I don’t disagree with abortion, but it’s not for me. I do think the threshold should be reduced.

I would also have aborted for Down's Syndrome. Each one of us should be allowed to assess whether or not we could raise a child with Down's Syndrome. Yes, some have a mild case and grow up to live independent lives. Life expectancy is improving. But there is a lot of research going on now that people with Down's Syndrome are living longer, and one of the things coming out is that they are at a greatly magnified risk of Alzheimer's Disease in later life. So that is another thing to consider when you are pregnant - do you want to make your child deal with that later on?

I don't think anyone is 'celebrating' a reduction in the number of people born with DS, but it is a good thing for women to be able to make an informed choice about whether or not to continue a pregnancy in that situation.

tinkywinky2018 - in theory nothing wring with women choosing abortion for medical reasons but hospitals can be very pushy, outlining everything that might go wrong and generally putting only a negative spin on it. And yet people continue with those pregnancies anyway. A 98 or 100% abortion rate for a condition suggests state propaganda on a huge level on how worthless those lives would be. That's the issuekids. People with Down Syndrome, Edwards, Patau etc aren't worthless, better off dead, a burden, life wrecking things to be exterminated.

motherofyorkies tgansk, I hadn't got access to google. So in fact babies born extremely early do not generally have severe disabilities as the study showed that 18 years ago it was only a quarter, and that's without huge leaps in neonatal care.

A 98 or 100% abortion rate for a condition suggests state propaganda on a huge level on how worthless those lives would be. That's the issuekids. People with Down Syndrome, Edwards, Patau etc aren't worthless, better off dead, a burden, life wrecking things to be exterminated

I find that insulting of you to the women making those choices, as if they can't make those choices for themselves. You are showing your own bias.I don't understand why people have a problem with serious conditions slowing disappearing from society. It's a good thing. Downs syndrome, Edwards etc are not just variances, they are serious conditions that vastly reduce quality of life.
People with conditions are not "things to be exterminated" (what a revolting thing for you to say) but neither are they differences to be celebrated and welcomed.

I am pro choice, and while I myself wouldn't get an abortion. Just getting pregnant would be lovely. I support and fight for women's right to choose.

There have been cases were a women was raped and can't bring herself to test so found out late, and as a result had a late termination. Would you really subject that women, whose been through enough to the pain of bringing a child into the world whom she didn't want.

And to the poster saying lower it to 8-10 weeks, what the fudge??

Terminations past 20 weeks are about 1 to 1.5% of the total number. And virtually all of them are performed because at the 20 week scan, the baby is found to have a condition incompatible with life. So for the vast majority of late term abortions, the woman's choice is to terminate a much wanted child or to go through with the pregnancy and deliver a baby who has no real chance at life.

For me things like this are why I'm pro-choice. There will never be a black and white feeling about abortion because it's an emotive subject. But to judge another woman for the choices she makes is unreasonable in the extreme; I know several women who've had abortions and not a single one of them has taken that decision lightly or impulsively.

A 98 or 100% abortion rate for a condition suggests state propaganda on a huge level on how worthless those lives would be. That's the issuekids. People with Down Syndrome, Edwards, Patau etc aren't worthless, better off dead, a burden, life wrecking things to be exterminated

Nobody has said that they are. But you are being naive and idealistic by pretending that the lives of parents of these children will not be incredibly tough, coupled with the intense worry about who will look after them when the parents have died, in the face of an ever-shrinking welfare state. Not all children with Down's Syndrome have a mild version- they may require round the clock care with no opportunity for an independent life. I couldn't do that and I certainly could not expect another person to make that sacrifice.

A 98 or 100% abortion rate for a condition suggests state propaganda on a huge level on how worthless those lives would be. That's the issuekids. People with Down Syndrome, Edwards, Patau etc aren't worthless, better off dead, a burden, life wrecking things to be exterminated

Given that, parents bare the brunt of the care for these people, for there entire life, and mostly parents will die first. That child then becomes the responsibility of the state. With no family to check in, and advocate for them. I bet three placed in the cheapest care home. With staff that don't really wanna be there being mistreated. What quality of life is that

Your view night also change again once you've had your baby. I was brought up against abortion, but having given birth, and started raising children - who are wonderful but like all children need a lot of love and time and ideally a fair bit of money - I would never want a woman who wasn't ready for this responsibility to be forced to undergo it. Nor do I think it is caring to make an unwanted child be born, there are plenty already..

Other thing for the people talking about babies born near 24 weeks - the outlook for these babies is not generally great. Around 60% will not make it ,(stat via Tommy's) and a vast majority will have complications such as developmental disorders. The good news stories are natural, and no-one dwells on the months in NICU and lifelong impacts but it gives us a false idea of how early a pregnancy is truly 'viable'.