...to have said no?

[BabsPym1]

7 year old DS is very wilful. Says no a lot. We've had thick snow but easing up. He wanted to wear shorts to school...it escalated into a row where I snapped, shouted, he cried. So I said fine. Then he said no to getting ready in the time frame I asked him to. Another mini row. Then he wanted to wear a particular pair of boots to school, take his school shoes, and two pairs of footie boots for his club (not knowing if it would be outside or inside). I refused, saying 4 pairs of shoes to school is too much, especially when he's got form for losing everything.

So I'm saying no. He's saying no. We're arguing. It's horrible. He's saying he hates me, I'm the worst mum.

And I'm thinking, should I have just said fine, and avoided the confrontation?

Honestly, I really have no idea how to avoid these spats without capitulating.

However, I just wanted to pass on a maxim of my German auntie's (who was a kindergarten teacher and highly regarded by pupils and parents as such): "Your "no" should be "no" and your "yes" should be "yes".

I love that. I hate it when my DH gives in and relents from a firm no to "Oh go on then if it'll stop you moaning!" Just to shut the kids up. It shows that they can get what they want just by arguing about it which only encourages them to defy us more in other things. I think DH gets more tellings off from me in our house than the kids do because his lax attitude makes everything else more difficult down the line.

@RowenasDiadem I actually hate the term "pick your battles" if I'm honest.

"Pick your battles" does't mean giving in. It means you, as the parent, decide whether it is a position worth holding or not. E.g. Parent says "it's cold. Probably a good idea to wear trousers". Child says "I want to wear shorts" Parent says "ok but just be aware that it's cold out today so maybe go inside if your legs get too cold"

I think by allowing children to make decisions (within reason), and accepting the consequences of those decisions, they are in a better position when they hit teens/adulthood.

Thanks for all this really helpful advice.

I should have let him wear shorts - he would have felt the cold and not done it again. But instead I let it become a halfway house and then felt really resentful and it escalated.

We have made him pay for things he's lost before. We do try to teach him the value of stuff

Snewsname, you're so right. I need to not get caught up. This is my issue. I have a short fuse and he pushes my buttons. Then nothing gets learnt/heard. I know this but in practice, it's really hard for me.

We do apologise to each other after. Often he does off his own bat. But then I feel so upset and battle weary and caught up in this fucking repetitious way of reacting/arguing. It's so tedious. It genuinely ruins my morning/day

You really need to stand your ground on this. Does he need all those shoes or not? If not which does he need?
He cannot wear shorts, it's just not practical. It's freezing and snowing.
But it sounds like this is just one of many many arguments. It sounds like he's a very strong-minded character and that you are stressed and maybe strong-willed too. Hence both shouting. Maybe after tea, tonight sit down together and come up with some rules together. Include that shouting is unhelpful and is not allowed but that you as the adult will have times when you need to show that you are cross or that he is doing something wrong. It's the way the world works, adults of all species that raise their offspring teach right and wrong.
PP is right, you need to work hard now to get this under control for both of you before his hormones hit otherwise it will only get worse. It might not seem a helpful statement but hopefully it will motivate you to try something.

Saying no and sticking to it doesn't make you a bad mum, or person or anything. IMO if you're doing your role right then you can expect many many more "I hate you" and "it's not fair" or the good old "you're the worst mum ever!". Keep at it. Try to stay calm and just say no, it's too cold for shorts, you need to wear your trousers. You have 5 minutes to think about it, change and leave for school. If you do not then x will happen.

You said No, he stropped and yelled and shouted, so you said Yes. That's your issue.

Ignore the tantrums, put earplugs in if you need to but never ever say No then give in. You aren't giving him any boundaries this way and kids need to learn that sometimes life gives you a big fat NO and you have to be able to deal with it. He'll soon learn.

Theymademejoinin - I do tend to agree with this. I believe it's actually going to be more helpful to him when he's older. ANd his personality is such that he needs to feel in control.

But I don't take enough of a position. I say no. I relent. Chaos ensues.

You maybe too wishy washy and give in to him easily as you did with the shorts.
My suggestion is that you need to lay down some rules ( in writing and where they can be seen ) and if he does not like those rules then tough, he will be punished if he breaks them. The punishment needs to tailored to fit the "crime" and you need to be strong and follow through to the bitter end enforcing these rules. No capitulation
I dont understand why your so concerned that you shouted at him,
you were at the end of your tether, it happens, especially as your DS knows how to push your buttons.

@mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork - "Your "no" should be "no" and your "yes" should be "yes".

Your auntie is very wise. That is the position I generally take. However, I do sometimes realise I have been wrong in my yes/no and will explain to the kids that I have changed my mind because of x or y. However, if they throw a tantrum or behave badly when I say no, I will not change my position. I'll just wander around feeling vaguely guilty for a while

Oh, I have one that used to be like this OP. And you're right, sometimes the natural consequence is the best thing. If he wants to wear shorts, he will be fucking freezing. Let him, its not your legs. Stubborn little fuckers will learn. Get him to carry his trousers with him in case he gets cold. HE carries them, not you. Then, if he wants to take 4 pairs of boots, HE has to carry them. If he loses anything make sure he knows that HIS toys will be sold to replace them. Don't argue, just clearly state the boundaries and outcomes of the situation he is putting HIMSELF in and then let him decide. And then for the love of God you have to stick to them. I used to find that setting out my stall with mine in this way used to take me out of the battle because I set the parameters of what would happen should things go wrong and that was that because I knew I would follow through with the consequence. Then I didn't get so cross. Some of them are just headstrong little buggers.

Mine is now a teenager and is the most capable, reasoned, self-sufficient teenager you could ask for. Completely takes control of situations, organises his whole group of friends, works like a Trojan and knows what he wants. Now and again he will dilly and dally when getting dressed. I set him a time to be ready, if he's not ready, I drive off without him. He knows I won't dick about and he knows that's the consequence. His dad is softer on him, and he will just be late getting ready every time for him.

I tried to think about it as things that would affect him...let him do (so cold legs not my problem) but things that affect me, I don't let him do (like make me late). My little one is completely different - 'yes mum, no mum' but totally the opposite in terms of taking control of situations now he's older :-D

Problem is that no didn't mean no for you. You gave into the shorts he thought you would give in to everything else too. I have to really watch with my DS(8) that once I say no it stays that way. Good luck they are a handful.

You're all right. I need to be consistent. Stick to my guns.

I think I'm so underconfident - and feel that he 'prefers' (such a babyish word, I know, but that's how it FEELS) my DH to me, that I capitulate quicker. My DH is more of a natural parent. He's great with discipline and the fun stuff. Me, I do all of life's admin, make everything happen for us as a family, but I get a lot more wrong. It's disheartening. I do really try but I need to have clearer guidelines for myself as well as him. I feel like a shit mum tbh

Yes, but he can't bear being told to do something. It's like he has to find his own (Natural consequences). I can't bear always having to do that - especially in a hurry - but I worry that my way of responding is making the situ worse

This may give you a better way to get him to co-operate and think it's his idea to choose the best solution. Reduce your demands by giving him choices.
www.pdasociety.org.uk/families/strategies

I’ve had two wilful children.
The best thing you can do is to be wry consistent. Decide what you are happynto say YES to and what you’re not.
If you have in the last said yes to the shorts, then let him do it. Dint even argue on that one. The most I have done is to point out that today is different. It’s very cold, it’s snowing so he is more likely to get cold.
Thenlet him decide but don’t make a huge fuss out of it. The most low key you can be about it and matter if fact, the better. Then he has nothing to rebel against iyswim.

For the things you are saying NO about, be just as matter of fact and keep repeating ‘NO, we don’t take two pairs of football shoes to school’ (you might need a pair for him to walk to school and then his school shoes but at our primary, they just asked children to wear their plimsoles instead)

Finally, give him as much leeway and responsibilities as possible. The more he is able to control his life, the more he is likely to accept the things you are asking him to do.
Obvioulsy it has to be age appropriate but it’s amazing how much freedom to chose you can give to children that age.
Bear in mind that sometimes he won’t be able to fully chose. The best in this case is to offer a reduced choice (TWO of them, no more!)
Eg you can have porridge or a fried egg for breakfast. What do you want? Rather than what do you want for b’fast and for him to ask for the one thing you dint have in the house!

But he's not always in control. He won't be able to get away with this behaviour in friendships, in adult relationships, with his teachers, peers or in a career there is always something or someone that say's no. He needs to learn to deal with it.
Think about when he's a teen and all his friends are drinking and staying out all night, will you be doing natural consequences then of him getting drunk/high/getting a girl pregnant? Say no is a vital part of parenting (IMO).

It might be fine sending him in shorts if the school has an open door policy at play times and he can come in if he's cold, but all the schools I've been to and worked at don't. They are out at play and told no if they try to come in. If they are cold they need to come with better clothing. Might seem harsh but it's the reality as they simply don't have the staff to monitor the children being in and out.

The thing about natural consequences is that the natural consequence of being rude is to be shouted at by the person you've been rude to.

He's 7. he can't make future planning decisions like "I'm warm now because I#m inside but it's -5 degrees and I will be cold later" or "It's really silly to drag 4 pairs of shoes around all day". You have to make those decisions for him and then insist on them. I too have a child who takes "No" like a red rag to a bull, but it just means you have to be firmer and NEVER GET DRAWN IN. Say NO and then let him feel his feelings about that. Ignore his rage and insistent demands. take him to school still furious. Say goodbye, and tell him to have a nice day, still croos BUT warm, and unencumbered by 4 pairs of shoes.

It's not your responsibility to manage all his emotions, it's his, and he won't learn how to if you don't give him the opportunity to feel them.

I don't understand all these posters saying he can't wear shorts. Of course he can. Different people have different tolerance levels for temperature. Unless he is going to be sitting still in the schoolyard all day long, he will be fine in shorts. He will be running around. He will only be outside for a limited time. Many classrooms are over heated so he will be much more comfortable indoors wearing shorts.

Just want to add my support to you OP. I get days like you too and try my best to step away from the argument. It's really tough to do! They press your buttons. The fact you sometimes feel like a shit mum proves you are not. Hang in there!

Thank you all so much. TeeBee, that's really helpful and reassuring. I feel he's got a bright future ahead - he's incredibly articulate, insightful etc. But he's such a pain in the ass too.

ObscuredbyFog. That's so much. I'll look those up. I don't for a minute think it is PDA but I totally get that strategies for that sort of defiance are helpful.

Kids try it on. If you say no you have to stick it.

Btw, with a child like your ds, I found that punishments dont work. They actually tend to make things worse and they made dc to be even more wilful and sticking to his NO (or whatever he wanted).

What really worked was to be stubborn like hell and keep repeating myself.

Wow you've had some snotty replies!

I think i would have said "no dont be daft it's snowing!" Then "i didnt realise this was so important to you you can wear shorts if you have snow trousers over them"
Or i would have said ok go run round the garden in shorts so you can see how it feels.

For that awful descending into a huge fight thing i find being silly really helps so "quick find the rewind button" back to the beginning start again.

I also explain to my kids that if Mummy shouts (unusual) it's really because i am scared - in this case scared that he would be cold & hurt by wearing insufficient clothes or scared that other people would think i wasnt looking after him properly.

no harm done really

You aren't a shit mum. You are a Mum learning as you go along and admitting when you could do things better.
My SS15 behaviour reminds me of my brother so I ask my mum every now and again how she handled my brother and if she has any advice. Does your son remind you of anyone so you could ask their parent if they have advice?
You just need to be more consistent which you've said above. It's going to be a tough few months learning to put your foot down and not retract and letting your son get his way.
It's also picking your battles, as weird as that sounds you should try to avoid fights you know you don't have the energy to see through. Like the shorts let him wear them straight away so you don't fight about it but then put your foot down about the many shoes.
I hope it help, but know your doing just fine. Kids are pains in the arse you just have to learn what works for you

Agree with the approach suggested by Obscured. I still do this with mine now. Not 'Can you take a shower?' but instead 'do you want a bath or a shower tonight'? They think they get the control, but you get the outcome you want...win win. A child mindlessly following rules doesn't work for some of them but HE has to pay the consequences, not you. With freedom comes responsibility. If he wants the choice, HE pays the consequence. No need to shout (although, God, I know its hard not to) but you have to be absolutely solid and relentless that he pays the consequence, otherwise you are doing him no favours at all.

Blimey, don't worry about being the popular parent. You're not their to be popular, you're there to help him along into adulthood and to being a self-sufficient being. A parent that gave him chocolate all day would be the favourite; but that isn't good parenting.

Don't fret about the shouting - if its occasional it won't harm him or your relationship. I'm going to assume he behaves just fine at school.

May I suggest 2 things

1. that instead of arguing you just repeat what you want you DS to do. Give clear instructions, eg put your trousers on now and stop shouting at me. Don't get drawn into discussion as that way leads to the arguing. So give the instruction, repeat 2-3 times and then introduce a consequence if he doesn't do as asked. Consequences should also follow for shouting at you - basic respect is fundemental
2. Follow through with the consequences of not following instructions, being rude etc. Your explanation of what happened this morning suggests to me you're not as strict as you may think you are as you may threaten but don't follow through; for example, when he cried this morning, you backed down. He 'won' and this has re-inforced his argumentative approach. Next time you have to grit your teeth, maybe feel shitty about making your son cry and push your instruction through. You are the adult, the parent and you have to take charge and sometimes he wont like it. C'est la vie.

If this pattern of behaviour has been going on for a while, it will take time to break the habit, so don't expect overnight results. You will need to stick to your intentions.
Oh and don't be afraid / embarrassed to say 'because I told you to' if he asks why he should do what you have asked.

I really feel for you. No doesn't work with my children! I would say "when you put your trousers on, then you can watch TV/have breakfast" or whatever will motivate them to do what they are told. And when they do it offer lots of praise