to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

Agreed, Flav. It always comes back to "the economy, stupid".
The amount of debates I've had in England, trying to convince people that all the sectarian troubles in NI had a primarily economic cause. Gerrymandering through property rights and plural business votes was nothing to do with religion, or language, or genetics - it was because some of the people with the most wealth and power wanted to keep it. Cf. Brexiteers.

Maryz I'm actively planning to move to your neck of the woods in two years (once my kids aren't at a vital point in their education). Though to be fair, 15 years in Southern England mean your property prices aren't as eye-watering as to someone moving there from Derry.

Julie apart from all the other nonsense in your post, do us all a favour and start calling it by it's proper name.

It doesn't matter what Julie's calling it, the important thing is that Teresa May and other members of the British Government have taken to calling it the 'Belfast Agreement'. No mainland British person will give a shite that this treaty, which they are hearing about for the first time, is about to be ripped up. Their knowledge about NI is so vague, that it won't occurs to them that it's the agreement that stopped the bombing of pubs and shopping centres on their own 'proper' British soil.

It's a fantastic bit of spin.

I suspect that today's official downgrading of the terror threat from dissident Republicans, is also politically motivated. I can't see any difference between the situation last month or last year and this morning.

Silently, you do us a disservice. I’m 30, so I was 11 when the GFA was signed. I don’t remember a lot from the time but I’ve known what the GFA is for many, many years.

The troubles are as much part of our history as they are Ireland’s. Of course, on the mainland there was in no way the same impact on daily life at all. But a lot of us have an awareness of that time and at least some understanding.

I remember reading an article not so long ago saying that we must have very low opinions of the Irish/NI if we think brexit is enough to derail the peace process. It was an interesting take on it.

I agree with you Mary that the Unionists are even less wanted. I daresay TM is lying in bed at night calling Arlene and the rest of the DUP all the names under the sun!
What I don't understand about the DUP is why they pushed for Brexit knowing the trouble it would cause with the border because being in the customs union benefits NI's economy greatly which they supposedly want?
Did they not think before they took their referendum stance? Or is it as I fear that they wanted the opposite of Sinn Fein no matter what that opposite was!

The troubles are as much part of our history as they are Ireland’s.

That's your first mistake, 'The Troubles' or, as we describe it, the long running civil war that took place in NI, isn't part of our history. During the whole length of that civil war, two bombs went off in Ireland, the totally number killed was less than an average weekend end of road traffic accidents. Don't get me wrong, the loss of those lives were felt but it would be disingenuous to claim that Ireland was impacted to the same extent as the British mainland, never mind NI itself. That was. British war.

I won't pretend we weren't horrified that the British set their own army to kill their own subjects, that they gave up on a legal system that had been the envy of the world and interned their own subjects without trial or that they tortured those they'd interned. While we were horrified, but there were bigger protests about the regime in South Africa.

Ireland, put no great pressure on the British Government after Bloody Sunday or when it because clear that a shoot to kill policy was in place at the border or even when their own security forces colluded with loyalist terror groups.

I don't mention any of this because I'm proud of it, I'm utterly ashamed at my government's inaction, but to try and impress upon you the extent to which we felt that it was none of our business.

I remember reading an article not so long ago saying that we must have very low opinions of the Irish/NI if we think brexit is enough to derail the peace process. It was an interesting take on it.

The Irish electorate turned out in massive number to do the little it could to guarantee the peace process, we gave up a claim to sovereignty, a claim we had never tried to enforce in any way. It gave the Unionists a little comfort, in that they could claim a minor victory. It was a face saving exercise for them, nothing more. Ironically, the claim had only ever been in the constitution to save face.

This, in addition to a few photo ops, is the totality of lreland's involvement in the GFA.

The agreement was actually made between the IRA and the British Government, facilitated by the Americans. There are Irish signatures on the bottom but we had no dog in the fight, we were there just so that the British could pretend that they weren't negotiating with terrorists.

No one is suggesting that the Irish army is going to invade when the GFA is ripped up. We'll probably go to European Court of Justice, send a stiffly worded letter or something ineffectual like that.

The actual problem is that it only take one pissed off Republican former bomb maker to feel he's been sold down the river over the border to make a YouTube video showing how he used to make a timing device in the auld days. He won't have to make the rest of the bomb, ISIS et al already know how to do that.

But Maryz and Silently you fail to see that for many of us in the north we see ourselves as only Irish. Not British, not dual or anything in between. Our country is Ireland and it is so disappointing to hear other fellow Irish citizens say things like that. It is both of our countries.

I am from a hardcore Republican background and I think not only would a reunited Ireland be a good thing, it will happen in the next twenty years and maybe in the early part of that period. I also think it would be not only affordable but very much in Ireland's economic interest to be reunited.

I hope the Irish government will fight tooth and nail for the GFA. There was so much hope invested in it, both because it promised peace and because of the promise of a future referendum (though couched in language that was meant to reassure Unionists that that would be the only way reunification would occur), and I fear many people will be very inclined to explore extremist options if the government takes a wishy washy position on it.

Ireland lost a lot during the Troubles and because of the threat of terrorism before then. Modifications to habeas corpus (assertion of the right of the government to introduce internment without trial) and the elimination of the absolute right to a trial by jury in the Offences Against the State Act of 1939 which set up the Special Criminal Court (subsequently extended in 1972) were very serious breaches of Irish civil rights and assertions of the rights of government. SCC creep has seen many gang cases tried there.

Kidnappings, bank robberies, assassinations, lots of vice, smuggling, the rise of criminal gangs and the compromising of some Gardai, the alleged allowing of pedophiles who were informants to continue their activities - all happened because of the Troubles.

The issue caused extreme friction in Fianna Fail from the early 70s until the end of the Haughey era. It was a massive distraction to everyone and prevented the development of a more left-right divide in Irish politics.

But Maryz and Silently you fail to see that for many of us in the north we see ourselves as only Irish. Not British, not dual or anything in between. Our country is Ireland and it is so disappointing to hear other fellow Irish citizens say things like that. It is both of our countries.

Should have had italics...

During the whole length of that civil war, two bombs went off in Ireland

there were 4, 3 in Dublin and 1 in Monaghan, DP's family were from Monaghan County. Of course, no one has ever been prosecuted for these bombings and the UK government has consistently refused to release papers about them. Neither the UK or ROI state can hold their heads up with pride over their behaviour into seeking justice.

Liquid - I'm from Dublin, and have lived in Belfast for over ten years. I love it here, NI is my home now and I have no desire to move back. I'm married to a Northern Irish Catholic, and I absolutely respect that he and his family are legally as Irish as I am, because they choose to be. Similarly, I respect that many of my friends here are wholly British, by choice.

However, to me, NI is absolutely not Ireland. When I moved here, I moved somewhere where I had to pay international rates to call home, the health service is different (much better), I paid emergency tax as I didn't have an NI number at first,I had trouble setting up a bank account as I didn't have proof of address within the UK - all those little hassles of emigrating. My friends here all went through a very different education system, we have different cultural experiences, we even had different TV growing up. How can you call yourself Irish if you didn't grow up with Bosco and the Toy Show?! (Tongue in cheek, obviously.)

My legal position here is no different to my sister's in London, I AM an immigrant here, I don't live in the country I grew up in. And I do feel like an immigrant. A very happy, settled one, and not particularly foreign as we have so much in common. But an immigrant nonetheless.

I grew up in Ireland when times were bad, was a teen during the early years of the Celtic Tiger, moved away just as the recession hit. I just don't see myself voting for a United Ireland, I couldn't do that to ROI economically. The vast majority of my friends and family feel similarly. The sentimental wish for a United Ireland at some point, ignoring practicalities, ranges from not particularly caring to a sort of "ah, I suppose it'd be nice, but...".

I'm someone who grew up in a unionist background. I'm not particularly bothered in most ways about a united Ireland. My parents would be very strongly unionist (although never of the DUP rabble rousing variety and they were always disgusted by Paisley and his behaviour and felt he had a lot of blood on his hands). They love Ireland to visit but in their minds they are a bit stuck in the 1950s Ireland with the poverty and the Catholic church stranglehold on everyday life. Those things aren't an issue any more, but I feel like a lot of people here simply aren't aware of that. Eg, I'd guess there are large swathes of people here who still believe that divorce is illegal in Ireland.

I'm happy to hold an Irish passport and have felt that way ever since the GFA. But would I be happy to suddenly have no NHS? Absolutely not. If there were a united Ireland tomorrow, my husband and I would both be unemployed and obviously we wouldn't be happy about that either. His job might theoretically be transferable to the equivalent government department in Ireland, but my job would just not exist.

It's those thoughts that keep middle of the road people like us clinging on to the UK, not some feeling of Britishness and love of the British establishment (who lets face it, despise the lot of us, whichever background we're from).

treacle - as an outsider, I often wish NI was better at embracing its joint heritage, and acknowledging the progress its made. Being proud of Northern Ireland rather than looking to Ireland or Britain. What do you think as a local? I generally find your posts very informative.

Liv kind of pointless but as a 35 year old born and bred here in NI I also grew up with bosco and the toy show, and the Den, dustin the turkey and zig and zag (before they went to the big breakfast in england!), the late late show on a friday night, gaelic in school, camogie, irish dancing, performing in the feis and scor competitions. I grew up feeling Irish. I also grew up knowing army checkpoints, helicopters landing in the fields behind our house, leaving the north for the whole of the 12th July fornight, hearing of murders and bombs and shootings not far away, and sadly our town centre being blown up killing many adults children AFTER the GFA was signed.As an adult I know I am an Irish citizen by choice, and I'd love nothing more than a United Ireland some day. Even with the higher house prices, and health insurance and higher taxes. Purely from my own observation though the pay seems to be a lot higher in the south to offset that, you have a far higher marriage tax allowance to allow mums to stay at home, and state benefits appear to be better. For now though I pay my tax to hmrc, my national insurance to the uk, work for and use the nhs and thats all Ive ever known either. And I'd rather have that any day than go back to how things were before.

I can only see calls for a 'united Ireland' increasing - from the rest of the UK. How long before people start whipping up the issues, pointing out how much more tax-payers money is spent in NI (e.g. £14k per head compared to SE Enlgand at £10k), without the £1 billion bribe to the DUP?

How soon before leavers start demanding that NI should just shut-up and do as their told, without the faintest idea how such thinking will only play into the hands of those with violence in their minds?

How long before people start whipping up the issues, pointing out how much more tax-payers money is spent in NI (e.g. £14k per head compared to SE Enlgand at £10k)

People in the rest of the UK already bring that up all the time. It's constantly thrown at us. Do they think people here like it that way? For all that money we still have worse infrastructure, poorer roads, very little public transport, low salaries, poor career opportunities etc compared with the rest of the UK. N Ireland costs the rest of the UK a fortune but it was England who created the problem here, and they're paying for it, in financial terms, centuries later. At every stage along the way they had the chance to make things better and they chose not to. Even partition might not have been such a disaster if the English government had exerted pressure on the 1920s to 1960s government here to treat Catholics like actual human beings instead of setting up an entire country to make life difficult for them.

Sorry, that should say the British government with regards to the 20th century, not the English government. When I used the term England earlier in the post I was referring to way back in history before the UK came into existence.

treaclesoda I take your point, but I doubt if many of the leavers will have thought about this, less likely care. They want what they want now, fuck everyone else.

Liv I agree entirely about a shared heritage.

For one thing, all this crap about the Irish language could be almost wiped out in one stroke if everyone learnt it in school, not just Catholic schools. When I was at school in the 90s we were still learning Latin at school...Irish would actually be an interesting thing to learn in parallel with English in schools here because so much of our speech pattern has come about due to the influence of the Irish language, why not embrace that? But no, it has to be 'Irish is for Republicans'

In NI I suspect some/many (you choose!) people do not feel that much of an affinity with Irish life and culture.

Points of reference for many are NI/British. From the shops, the cultural reference points e.g tv and radio (bbc, itv etc especially growing up in 1970's - 2000's). At school in NI students sit GCSEs and A levels which are massive landmarks in a person's life and a huge common denominator with E and W.

In terms of national politics, I am guessing many people would recognise Westminster but not Dublin politicians (I could be wrong).

NHS is obviously a big common factor in UK life and free at the point of use healthcare is what everyone is used to.

Two very different set ups and two very different experiences.

I can't help feeling that the DUP are leaping into the no Irish language act stance to avoid facing up to their own mess with RHI. They lost the seats they needed for the petition of concern after that came out before the last election, whipping up a frenzy over Irish seems a cynical way to regain those seats.

Like the flegs protest and the shit stirring manipulation of the disenfranchised loyalist community they pulled then.

Little that's definitely true. And yet there are some things where even the most Presbyterian of N Ireland folk are much more like the rest of Ireland than the UK. Funerals being one that springs to mind. I read funeral discussions on mumsnet with my mouth hanging open because it's all so alien to me. The idea of no wake beforehand, the funeral being weeks later, the family deciding who attends the funeral etc and people feeling trampled on because someone they didn't know that well came to the funeral. Whereas here, funerals are all hands on deck and if at least someone from work didn't go to your colleague's mum's funeral everyone would think you were collectively unspeakable self centred arseholes.

Mathanxiety
For some reason ( previous posts) I thought you lived in the US.
I love reading the different viewpoints on this thread.

treaclesoda re Funerals. Most people in the UK are cremated, probably due to the lack of space in burial grounds and the cost. At this time of year there can be quite a wait to get a slot at a crematorium, so a few week's wait is quite normal. As to getting time of work to attend, most employers will only give bereavement leave to very close relatives.

Some very interesting points raised here.

The thing that stands out most to me is that moderates from both sides in NI have far more in common with each other than they do with mainland U.K./ROI.

The problem, for a united Ireland is that there really isn't a huge amount of cultural connection between NI nationalists and the ROI anymore. And the boom, bust & recovery in Ireland has changed things quite considerably. If you'd asked me in 2006 would ROI be up for taking on NI I would have said probably yes. Now, definitely not, as they're much more focused on securing their own long term stability.

Equally I can't see many NI being truly happy giving up low taxes, high state support and the NHS.

Brexit is such a sad thing for NI really, because the best thing possible for the province was to maintain the status quo, focus on getting the economy to prosper and minimise silly beggary in stormont. The ordinary people of NI were in quite a good place.

Brexit pisses over all of that very seriously. It's very saddening to see how little that's understood or cared about among the brexiteers. Not surprising mind.

We have, a political family in Kerry who seem to have distilled NI politics into two brothers.

They are called the Healey Reas, and they make massively stupid pronouncements, in cod accents while wearing stupid hats. Then the rest of the country takes the position that all Kerry people must be stupid for having voted for such a pair of gobshites. Then they go back to Kerry, complaining that everyone else in Ireland thinks that Kerry people are stupid and that voting for a couple of gombeens in stupid hats, is the only suitable revenge. Kerry people thing 'how dare those fancy pants Dublin types mock our democratically elected representatives, we'll show 'em' and elect them again. This cycle is now on its second generation.

They also mirror the DUP in doing that corrupt but not illegal thing of employing very close family members as support workers.

The similarity, is this cycle of mistrust, isolation, claiming victim hood and a deep, if misplaced, desire to take revenge on those perceived to be 'other'. Outsiders alternate between wanting to shake some sense into them and ignoring them completely.

Personally, I'd be quite happy for Kerry to become part of NI or anywhere else.

@LaurieMarlow Great post. The sad truth is the ROI doesn't want a United Ireland (spiritually maybe but economically absolutely not) but the UK doesn't want us either, as evidenced by the absolute lack of consideration of the impact of Brexit on NI.