to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

LiquidCosh I think it's a pretty reasonable reaction tbf. I can't blame the UK for wanting to ditch us which I'm pretty damn sure they would if they could and I can't blame anyone in Ireland for not wanting to take us and our issues on.

That's always puzzled me about the extreme ends of the divide here, how can people take pride in belonging or wanting to belong to somewhere that doesn't want them?

Likewise the stuff about how our history is in the shipyards and mills, it is, but our present is in technology and we need to make the most of it.

MaryZ no chance, they'd sink within minutes

Sadly, math, while I think it might all work out in the end (and may eventually be the only feasible option), there are enough dyed in the wood Unionists to make dragging them kicking and screaming into a United Ireland pretty much impossible.

It's been nearly 100 years since Ireland got independence; I know when I was in school in the 70s we weren't taught about the civil war in the 20s because it was wtihin living memory. That's 50 years. I had relations where brothers didn't talk to each other after those 50 years, and in fact never spoke again.

If Ireland was to unite, I think it would be another 50 years before it settled down, and I don't think we can afford 50 years of unrest, even with EU financial support.

That's all irrelevant though; TM has an idea. A borderless border. That'll work.

To the previous posters saying "Oh thanks but no thanks Ireland don't want NI back" can i just say FUCK YOU!! As an Irish person living in the North I, and people like me are just as Irish as you or anyone else in the South. Who do you think you are to try and tell us what our own country thinks.

I respect your right to self determination but you simply don't have a right to join our country without our permission. If you're Irish, that's grand, come and live in Ireland if you want to, you have that right but expecting Ireland to take on the least economically active and most heavily subsidised part of the U.K. is too much to ask.

94% of Irish people in the Republic voted to give up our territorial claim on NI, in the GFA, that was a pretty clear statement of intent.

And yet if you asked them do you want to be in the UK and out of the EU or in the EU and out of the UK you would get a definitive answer.

No, you'd get an answer at a population level which is the "I win" response. The whole point of the GFA is that people in NI can choose at an individual level if they want to be Irish or British or both.

So you would need to ask the question at an individual level and that's where it get complicated!!!

Before the EU referendum I didn't think I'd see a UI in my lifetime. Since it, I do. Even Ian Paisley Jr is recommending his constituents get Irish passports! But I only want a UI at the point that it can happen peacefully. And I do think that it's inevitable for such a small island for that to happen one day.

I'm scunnered after TM's speech today. Truly scunnered. They still don't get it at all.

Flavia 37 weeks Tell that baby to sit tight until the roads are safe! Hope it all goes really well.

I haven"t read the thread but here's my thoughts on the question in the title.

Brexiters want there to be fewer European nationals settled in the UK. This can be achieved by removing their right to work here legally without imposing a hard border because quite simply, Europeans won't want to come to work illegally in the UK. Being an illegal immigrant is shit and the difference in standard of living between the UK and Eastern Europe is just not enough to make it worthwhile, espeically given that they will still have the option of being legal immigrants in Germany.

Similarly, Europeans have visa free travel to the USA, even though they don't have the right to work there. The American government (correctly) assumes that very few citizens of rich peaceful countries will want the poverty and precarity of being an illegal immigrant.

That's always puzzled me about the extreme ends of the divide here, how can people take pride in belonging or wanting to belong to somewhere that doesn't want them?

Firstly, I obviously need to acknowledge that most people are on those extreme ends but those who are, don't want to be part of either country.

The Unionist want to be British unless they are asked to recognise that GB is a liberal democracy, with liberal abortion laws and liberal same sex marriage laws. That the GB British are very big on religious freedom and don't tie up swings in the play park on Sunday. That they pay Council Tax at a rate that provides most local services and that they are moving towards a small welfare state.

The Nationalist don't want to be the kind of Irish, living in Ireland, who pay for GP visits and health insurance. Who pay much higher rates of income tax and who have the kind of culture where the state aren't expected to help out average income working families.

It's almost like both side are perfectly happy to cherry pick while complaining about it.

That's very simplistic kirsty.

Are you going to spend millions rounding up illegal immigrants and deporting them? Only for them to be replaced by many more? Of course they will come; the only thing stopping economic migrants is physical borders, not threats of deportation

Flavia; if your weather is anything like ours shut your legs for a week

most aren't on the extreme end...

That's the thing silently last time I checked I already live in Ireland, in the north. Anyway its attitudes like yours and others that make me think actually we could do alright on our own up here.

If the UK starts being tough on EU immigrants, and keeps the 'border' open, as per their current plans, I think it will be more complex than that Kirstie. Because there are other reasons to want to come aside from for a job. Take the example of an EU citizen working a minimum wage job, with right to remain. He goes to the country of his birth for a holiday, meets someone and fall in love, and returns to his job. Will he go through the hassle and expense of applying to bring his new partner here legally? Or will the partner fly into Dublin, drive two hours and then hop on a ferry? He's happy for her to shack up in his shared house, and she can probably get a bit of cash in hand work.
There's an argument of course that that kind of 'illegal immigration' isn't too concerning. However, it makes the whole premise of controlling ones borders ridiculous - it was never achievable, short of reigniting civil war. Additionally there are concerns it could lead to more modern slavery and people trafficking.

@Liquidcosh

While I respect that you're a dual national, you live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I know you're talking to another poster, Silently, and perhaps she is a dual national. I'm not - born and bred in Derry, and purely an Irish citizen. I never have been and never will be a British citizen.

I do understand and respect your reasoning for not wanting a UI, but I do think you should respect the fact that many of us in the north are (solely) Irish too.

That's a bit unfair Liquid. And in a way demonstrates Silently's point.

If Ireland (as a country) doesn't want NI we are nasty horrible bigots.

If we (as a country) do want NI we are also nasty horrible bigots.

I'm not sure who we are bigoted against - maybe the Unionists, because we don't want them because they are Protestant, and British. Or maybe the Nationalists because we can't afford to save them from the nasty horrible Unionists.

It's very confusing, because whatever we do, or vote for, as Irish citizens, is going to offend someone.

But from an economic point of view we can't afford to unite with NI. And NI can't afford to join with us. So that's not an option for anyone whether they want to or not.

I do understand and respect your reasoning for not wanting a UI, but I do think you should respect the fact that many of us in the north are (solely) Irish too.

Fair enough, I was under the impression that those born in NI were automatically dual citizens but I'm happy to be corrected. :-)

But Maryz and Silently you fail to see that for many of us in the north we see ourselves as only Irish. Not British, not dual or anything in between. Our country is Ireland and it is so disappointing to hear other fellow Irish citizens say things like that. It is both of our countries.

It's very confusing, because whatever we do, or vote for, as Irish citizens, is going to offend someone.

I hope, we're a developed enough democracy, that we will vote for what is in our own interests rather than worrying about who we're going to offend. God knows we get enough practice at the auld voting.

But Maryz and Silently you fail to see that for many of us in the north we see ourselves as only Irish. Not British, not dual or anything in between. Our country is Ireland and it is so disappointing to hear other fellow Irish citizens say things like that. It is both of our countries.

It's not that I don't accept and respect that you're a fellow Irishwoman, I do, without reservation.

What I don't accept is that NI is part of Ireland. We are two separate and distinct countries.

I totally agree with the poster above who points out that there is no pride in hanging on to a country that doesn't want you whether that be Ireland for nationalists or Uk for unionists. An independent Northern Ireland seems to be the most sensible option. Given the choice to sink or swim if left on our own, I think that the amazing middle thinking people of NI would totally swim. We are resourceful and over time our differences would become strengths.

I do recognise that LiquidCosh - that you think yourselves Irish ONLY.

But in fact, if it came to it, how many of you would be happy with no NHS, and higher taxes, and different social welfare, and higher property prices? A few might, but the majority want the best of both worlds. So a United Ireland with free GP care, for example.

I, like Silently, recognise all citizens of NI as being "Irish". But that doesn't mean that we (RoI) as a country, can afford to absorb you, and keep you in the style that you are currently used to.

I think the Unionists are even more "unwanted" though. Brexit has shown that the vast majority of English people (and to a lesser extent Welsh and Scottish) don't give a shiney shite about anyone in NI

This thread has been fascinating. My DD's father is from right on the Irish border and I'm never sure whether she's half Northern Irish or half Irish. After this thread I have even less idea

I think we'd sink, we simply couldn't survive economically.

I'm in the we need to improve our economy and then politial improvementsw will follow camp. Which brings us back to Brexit putting the local economy at risk...

Brexit has shown that the vast majority of English people (and to a lesser extent Welsh and Scottish) don't give a shiney shite about anyone in NI sad

What really brought it home to me was having to explaine to English friends about the DUP, after the last Westminster election. Their vacant expressions when I explained that NI is part of the U.K. I'm not talking about people who are uninterested in politics, they could hold their own in a discussion about most aspects of current affairs but NI is a big fuzzy haze to them.

I come from a fairly hardcore Republican background and it was the first time, I felt sorry for Unionists; all that effort and that that pride, in a country that doesn't even know you exist.

Julie, apart from all the other nonsense in your post, do us all a favour and start calling it by it's proper name.

which is (see: peacemaker.un.org/uk-ireland-good-friday98):

The Northern Ireland Peace Agreement.