to think there must be some kind of border in Ireland / Northern Ireland because of people

[kalapattar]

All the talk has been about goods and services.

But how will people travel between the UK and Ireland without a physical border? Passport checks, immigration status etc. There won't be a border between mainland UK and Northern Ireland so how will this work?

Somerville That's actually quite a good suggestion. If EU citizens living outside the EU have that right then it sounds good, if they dont then I would not be as confident. I think that is a similar idea to what France does.

But the fact remains it is utter nonsense to suggest GFA and Brexit are compatible UNLESS we remain in the single market

Agree to disagree, we shall see who is right in the coming months and years.

All those who are Irish-in-NI have therefore got EU rights which under the GFA we shouldn't lose

It does sound like a really complicated issue with lots of ramifications (I am thinking of the European Court of Justice for one) - which Brexit and the fact the DUP are propping up the Conservative party is going to mean that any solution will be politically difficult.

The vast majority of the people of NI support the GFA and do not want it undermined

And yet if you asked them do you want to be in the UK and out of the EU or in the EU and out of the UK you would get a definitive answer. I will repeat, leaving the EU does not mean leaving the Belfast Agreement.

People in Northern Ireland are in a unique position because out of the whole UK they will have the option to be EU citizens if they want. People in Wales, Scotland and England wont have that automatic choice.

And yet if you asked them do you want to be in the UK and out of the EU or in the EU and out of the UK you would get a definitive answer

I wonder how many want to be in the UK and in the EU?

(but that's never going to be an option)

Julie - Do you agree that leaving the EU (SM CU) does impose a border between NI and RoI? It matters not how that border might be managed to achieve 'frictionless' or otherwise trade. If there is a border there is a breach of the GFA/BA. The UK is, by leaving the EU, causing the creation of a border. You may not be a lawyer but do you accept that this is a logical deduction from the current UK position?
If so, then do you agree that it leaves the UK in the very awkward position of being in breach of an international treaty that was brokered to achieve peace in Ireland/NI/GB at precisely the same point in history when we want/need to be seeking new international agreements with other countries. Would you want to deal with such a reliable treaty partner?

And yet having the option to choose passports is going to be no use whatsoever in daily existence for those living right on the border in the event of a hard Brexit.

Ex's family live right on the border. Lots of them are probably those people you hear about whose houses are technically half in NI half in ROI. They work in one, send one child to school in one and one in the other, use nearest medical facilities whichever side is convenient etc. A border would cause carnage for people in those regions.

JWIM But there is already a border, the UK isn't creating it, which obviously is not in contravention of any law. So its clearly a matter of 'how' that border is managed. So if the border after Brexit is as frictionless for people as it is now then ... what does that mean, how can it be illegal? Hence why I said its legal technicalities.

So, IMO, its about what type of border is there (correct me if I am wrong). And that is a political choice. No body wants to have a 'hard' border' , but lets say the EU chose to impose a hard border, doesn't that mean its the EU that is breaking the laws?

MaceWindu Its only remainers who want a hard Brexit. Brexiteers are trying to avoid that.

The EU is not going to impose a hard border.

Currently, there is a border there. But because NI and ROI are both in the EU customs union, to all intents and purposes that border only exists on paper.

If the UK withdraws from the customs union, that creates a border.

If that happens, the EU is not imposing a hard border. The U.K. Is imposing a hard border by consequence of withdrawing from the customs union. That violates GFA, which you keep insisting on calling Belfast Agreement.

The EU are not the bad guys here.

Last time I checked remainers wanted anything BUT a hard Brexit. You know, being remainers...

Julie - what is a hard Brexit for you then? I don't think any remainers want a hard Brexit. For me a soft Brexit is one where we still have access to the Single Market - I thought you said that Leavers didn't want that?

Those 'legal technicalities' cannot just be ignored. If the UK does not uphold the GFA/BA treaty terms it is in breach of an international treaty even if there are ways to alleviate the imposition of an active border.

If we want to change the terms of the GFA/BA to achieve leaving the EU then we should give notice to the treaty partners and negotiate a new treaty. Have we done that? No.

I sure as hell don’t want a hard brexit

Ex's family now all have both British and Irish passports. Ex wants to do the same for DD but we can't as she already holds citizenship from my country. The choice will have to be made for her whether she is British or Irish and EU, not all NI are in the position to hold both.

But the everyday living practicalities are more of a pressing issue than passports IMO.

Its only remainers who want a hard Brexit. Brexiteers are trying to avoid that.

See, there are times julie where I think you want to engage in sensible debate and I am ready to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And then you come out with total crap like this and I change my mind.

Its only remainers who want a hard Brexit. Brexiteers are trying to avoid that.

Yes.

The 16+ million British citizens who voted to remain in the EU and who are having their EU citizenship forcibly ripped from them are the ones who want to sever all ties with the EU. That is the way it is. Of course that statement makes sense. What a sensible post to make.

I think what you mean is - remainers are the only people talking about a hard border on the Island of Ireland - but that is because they are the only side of the debate that are engaging with reality and have understood that actions have consequences and that we can't make up the rules as we go along if there are already rules in place and these rules will affect other sovereign nations.

But 'engaging with reality' and 'want' do not equal the same thing.

Either Julie is a goady fucker, or leavers really are as thick as we're not allowed to call them.

None of the people arguing there is a problem with Brexit has addressed the issue we currently have an excise border. Can anyone explain why that cannot be replicated for customs?

Julie8008 Thu 01-Mar-18 21:13:35
People in Northern Ireland are in a unique position because out of the whole UK they will have the option to be EU citizens if they want.

Choosing EU citizenship is meaningless without the ECJ to guarantee their civil and human rights, rights that were trampled over roughshod from 1921. You don't even need to have a so-called 'long memory' to recall that the spark that lit the Troubles was the treatment of people marching for civil rights, in a campaign that was modeled on the American civil rights movement.

Leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ means allowing people a meaningless piece of paper.

3/4 of the Northern Ireland voters voted for the GFA. About 90% of the population of the Republic of Ireland voted for the constitutional changes that allowed the GFA to be recognised.

Yet you blithely suggest it must be compromised? Because suddenly it gets in the way of something many voters decided on by a coin toss?

None of the people arguing there is a problem with Brexit has addressed the issue we currently have an excise border. Can anyone explain why that cannot be replicated for customs?

Where would these customs posts be, once the two parts of Ireland are no longer in the same free trade area? They would either have to be on the north/south border, or on the NI/rUK border. Both of which have been firmly ruled out.
And how would that deal with the Brexit requirement to control immigration? Passport control on the NI /rUK border is also ruled out by various parties.

Brexiters like to talk about principles, without explaining the detail of exactly how they would be implemented. They just leave it to the victims of Brexit, in this case the peoples of Ireland, to try and sort out.

I find discussion on these threads interesting

Unfortunately I've left every thread I've been on because of Julie spouting crap, it just becomes impossible when one person just tells lie after lie and everyone ends up arguing with that one person.

It's a shame.

Yes, Maryz, I avoided the politics section eventually because it seemed every thread was derailed because of Claig who was similar.

I don't mind debating with brexiters, but it's when they have racist overtones to their messages, and/or keep derailing other people's thread with overt lies, that it infuriates me. Depending who's on duty at HQ they get censured or don't. It's frustrating.
I just keep reporting.

Either Julie is a goady fucker, or leavers really are as thick as we're not allowed to call them.

She's neither, she's a perfect example of how views become polarised in sectarian communities. Julie isn't exposed to anyone in her day to day life with differing views. She has no one to tell her that her views don't make sense. She, like most loyalists, lives with the delusion that Ireland is full of poor, backward people who are just sitting on the boarder waiting to attack all that she holds dear.

She can't even bring herself to correctly name the international treaty that over 70% of her fellow citizens voted for because it would be using the same name as the Irish/Nationalist/floating Catholic and she can't associate herself with them in any way.,

She is NI's tragedy personified.