Swimming changing

[hunkadunka]

My DC mentioned today that when they go swimming with school, they are supervised, they said 'watched', in the single sex changing rooms by a TA of the opposite sex. DC says it makes them feel uncomfortable. They are year 4.

Fairly obviously, I'm talking about a group of boys, being supervised by a female teacher. We both feel that a male member of staff would never be allowed to do this in the girls' changing room. There are no male TAs, so no possible male supervisor. However, again, I feel that if the sexes were the other way around, it would be deemed so unacceptable, as to be sorted in some way. There are male members of pool staff, but nothing to do with the school.

My DS knows about male privilege, and that girls would be more concerned about men in the changing rooms because our society sexualises young women, and we have a problem with male violence. We genuinely have these conversations. So I've explained that this is why it's seen as less of an issue having a woman in the boys' changing rooms. However, he feels that he and the other lads would feel more comfortable with male supervision.

Is my DS BU?

We had changing rooms and were unsupervised.

We got on with getting changed.

By the way. I think this thread raises interesting issues and have responded to it in good faith. But I am also a little wary that this is a first post detailing an unusually adult level of conversation between a year 4 child and his mother. I'd hate to think this was not actually what your son is saying and we are being hoodwinked.

However, if you really have been talking to your 9 year old son about male privilege and paedophilia in those terms, then that's possibly detrimental to his growing selse of himself and his self esteem

But but not all children do Giles some require support and others can't behave. It only takes one.

I wonder if it would help on swimming days to suggest to parents that they send them in in trackies and a t shirt.

Would make it easier for those kids to get changed as they aren't having to faff about with ties and shirts etc

If you ask me schools bring alot if this on themselves with the requirements of ridiculous impractical clothing.

For the ones that actually need help, it wouldn't make enough difference to change from 'requires help' to being independent.

It could help speed up the process though so the ones who are not comfortable with the female staff members could be out of there a bit quicker.

Although there must be a family change cubicle or something where the struggling kids could use?

I am surprised though that there's not even a care taker or someone who could go for what? An hour?

Giles

Don't be surprised. Support staff jobs are being cut massively. You might get some luck asking for a male parent volunteer though

I totally see your sons point, I’d speak to school

In the meantime, can you ask that the female teacher doesn’t “watch” them and maybe is just in ear shot?

Teach him how to dress under a towel or dressing gown?

Giles my daughter's school does this. It's quite a good solution. They specified black tracksuit which would get round the labels problem. Supermarkets already sell tracksuits like this.

giles that would mean the child or children needing help would have to stand there and struggle or potentially fall while others got dressed.
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Some pools have cubicles, others don't but that would require extra staffing that might not be available.
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Some schools literally have no male members of staff at all. Yes I have known schools take the caretaker as they are the only male but that depends on the suitability of that person, their willingness to do it and budgets.

no

Kids who regularly need support dressing will be used to staff members being there with them so it won't really be them uncomfortable.

Easy clothing would help those who struggle and take time with shirts and ties get dressed independently and quickly.

If you tell them you are coming in after 10/15 mins anyone who mucks about will only have themselves to blame for being in an undressed state and will just have to lump it.

Why do they need to be supervised? My son is 8, he's been swimming since year 1 because the school has a pool. They get changed by themselves, they have a time limit and they are expected to stick to it. At 6 it is assumed that children can dress/undress themselves. By 9 I'm pretty sure they've mastered the skill .

@IfNot why should he "get a grip"?
Why is it any different to if a male TA was supervising the girls? I'm pretty sure you'd be calling for his his crucifixion in that scenario.
Other kids "real problems" are irrelevant to his problems. That would be like telling a rape victim to get a grip because theirs isn't a real problem compared to someone who got murdered.

In reality it shouldn't be an issue either way, male or female supervising either boys or girls. We are all just people.

But not all kids literally need 'dressing' they need support. Some children will be used to it if they have that level of need but many children fall somewhere in between and they aren't being segregated from the other children in order to do it. There isn't the staff for that unless they have 1:1 support all of the time which isn't that common.
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Getting the children changed quickly isn't the only issue. Bad behaviour, particularly against other children is a factor. I'm not facing a parent after their children was injured or hurt saying 'well there's nothing I could have done because they were in a room with no supervision'. The first thing a parent will ask is, where was the adult.

The simplest answer is to have more male members of staff but that isn't something most of us can influence.

Many older boys and men have female carers for intimate care and this seems to be generally accepted

There are options to suggest though surely?

The op can ask:

About the care taker going
About leisure centre staff
About cubicles
About clothing.

We don't know that there are any children who need that kind of support. Hey might all be fine. They might all be pretty well behaved.

Presumably they had to sign a consent form anyway? The form could have pointed out that there may not be male members of staff available. Or that they plan on asking the staff at the pool.

That would give parents a chance to talk it over with their kids. Given many do swimming lessons outside if school anyway it's not a huge deal if they decide not to go.

It's just not ok Imo to go "tough crap boys you are wrong for for wanting girls in the room" just as it's not fair to expect girls to have men in theirs.

I just don't like the attitude that it's the kids who have a problem with what would outrage people in the same circumstances outside of school.

giles swimming is part of the curriculum so they need a really good reason not to go. I'm not sure why you are interpreting the issues I'm pointing out as an assumption that boys should just lump it. The point is that there are real, practical reasons why these things occur, not just about laziness or an unfeeling attitude towards boys. There are not enough male members of staff and very few male volunteers. I can literally only think of one male volunteer in my whole career.
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The reverse wouldn't occur because education is so heavily female orientated and even if it did occur there would be female volunteers to call on.

The issue of paedophilia is irrelevant. We’re talking about young men who are on the cusp of puberty. They’re becoming aware of their bodies and if they feel uncomfortable about a female being present that needs to be recognised.

What do we teach our kids? Their bodies are theirs and to be told to change under a towel, I imagine, is not very validating of his feelings. I agree wholeheartedly a male should supervise if it makes them more comfortable.

I would say the same about girls and a male teacher. Their comfort is just as important as an adults’. Definitely raise it with the school, op. I’m surprised this is actually happening - when we went swimming in the early 00’s they were always same sex supervising.

ivenoidea

His feelings can be validated, and he can be taught what to do in order to ameliorate them.

By all means, ask for a solution from the school. Hopefully there is one. But there might not be

... teaching children what to do to make themselves feel better is empowering.

No, I'm not a troll. I talk to my 9 year old about these things in an age appropriate way. He, unfortunately, has had experience that some adults are not good at adulting, so that isn't news to him. I don't talk about it in graphic detail. He doesn't know all about male privilege. But, I think it's important to introduce the concept. There isn't a paedophile around every corner, but nor is it uncommon, and I believe open, honest discussion protects that, and I'm please he can say when someone supervising him naked makes him uncomfortable. I'm building his 'shark cage'. I also have no wish to create the future Brock Turner, and I think such education starts young.

I have suggested that my bright, articulate and assertive child raises it himself at school. I honestly don't think there is a solution.

I can see opinion is divided, and I do think that of the things for me to raise with school, this is probably a thing to hold back on, as I wish to keep that for 'more serious' issues. Then I worry that there is no more serious thing than my children being allowed to keep their privates private.

notagainyoda "However, if you really have been talking to your 9 year old son about male privilege and paedophilia in those terms, then that's possibly detrimental to his growing selse of himself and his self esteem"

As above, I believe the opposite. Nothing damages your self esteem or sense of self like being sexually abused. Or becoming a rapist. I'm all about positive self esteem and sense of self. I feel the fact he can articulate and raise this shows I'm doing a good job.

@notagainyoda I appreciate what you are saying entirely. However, I don’t find advice like turn around so you can’t see her looking or get changed under a towel to be very good a solutions to a problem which makes him feel so very uncomfortable.

In an adult scenario, say a female office worker felt uncomfortable that her boss would stand over her desk to make sure she does a job. She felt intimidated and uncomfortable by it, but she contact HR to be told ‘they have every right to make sure you’re doing your job! Just don’t look at them.’ Albeit OP’s son is not as extreme but it is still two individuals who feel uncomfortable with the scenario. The onus is being put entirely on the OP’s son to rectify.

Say the school gets a male volunteer or lifeguard to supervise, and another kid in the class is uncomfortable with a man there?

Which kids' issue trumps the other?

The boy should just get changed under a towel, because what if he himself is making other kids uncomfortable by not doing so?