Please please could someone read this email to ex and tell me if I sound a twat/too harsh/not harsh enough

[theduchessstill]

I know it's not really AIBU but I am in pieces about this and have no one to go through it with in rl atm. I think the context is pretty clear from what I've written. Ds1 really doesn't want to go there (he's 10), but, aside from whether that's UR or not, I have to work over the weekend and really on their twice weekly contact with H to work anyway. I've emailed before but he never responds.

Email:

Ds1 has been talking more this week about his feelings about his life at the moment and his experience of living between the two houses. In particular he has reiterated his feelings about the bias he perceives you showing towards ds2 and the fact that he feels you become angry with him in way that he doesn't think is proportionate with his actions. He has stated that you have hit him more than once as a way of punishing him when he hits ds2. Obviously this is not an ideal way of dealing with violence between them and you need to know that ds1 has been very upset by it. He has also said he finds you quite unpredictable in general.

He would like to stay with me tomorrow and for me to drop him off at yours on Friday morning after ds2’s one-to-one swimming lesson (8.30-9am). I realise you are not going to be happy about this, but you need to understand this has all come from ds1 and I have not led these discussions or initiated them - he has. I think they are difficult to manage and there is a lot of competitiveness between them and ds1 is feeling a high degree of responsibility for how tensions are managed. For instance, he has said he realises ds2 is very stubborn and that you find it difficult to enforce rules with him etc. This is just an observation he has made and he shouldn't have to be worrying about these things.

I feel like you need to be more proactive in the way you parent them and less reactive. I spend a lot of time thinking about how to manage situations and most definitely don't always get it right; it is hard and takes up a lot of time and energy I don't always feel like I have. But that is parenting - it's not just a case of making sure you have time with them, but what you do with them when you have it. I think it's vital that ds2 is dealt with firmly and with consistency, and that ds1 sees this happening. At the moment there are a lot of gaps that behaviours are slipping down and this has implications for their future relationships with each other, us and other people.

I wish you would reply to this. I can't keep sending them to you, knowing that some things are not quite right and the fact that you won't communicate with me about it is making it a lot worse. Parenting is hard, and certainly harder in a situation like ours, but it could be easier if we were in communication with each other and filled each other in about things that have happened and how we have dealt with them etc.

I think it would be a good idea if you discussed ds1’s feelings with him over this weekend while you are in X and ds2 could be looked after by someone else. I think he would really appreciate it and you could identify things he thinks he would like to happen. I have found it helpful to involved them in drawing up house rules and ds2 might like writing them down with pens/colours etc.

End of email.

That's as far as I've got. Hits haven't been hard I think and ds1 has said other stuff about ex being distant, slouching around and being lazy - all of which I know and have experienced/seen for myself. Not bad enough to withhold contact I suppose, but should I be standing by while ds1 is so upset and adamant he doesn't want to be there?

You definitely need to miss out the paragraph telling him to be proactive not reactive. i suspect he won't take kindly to being told how to parent his children any more than you would. And how he parents on his time is down to him.

What you need to do is get across how the situation is making Ds1 feel - ie Ds1 hits out at ds2 because... ; Ds1 feels that ex favours ds2 because ds2 is stubborn and refuses to follow the rules ex sets and so on. Ds1 would like to spend more quality time with his dad without worrying that ds2 is going to spoil it. Get across that you are speaking on behalf of Ds1 rather than these are your thoughts.

Re the change of drop off, how do they normally work - does ex pick them both up from school, does he collect them from yours, do you take them to him?

It's not unreasonable to say "Ds1 has asked if he can be dropped at yours after ds2's swimming lesson on Friday instead of arriving on Thursday as planned. Please let me know whether this is feasible.

A reply would be expected given the request to vary contact. But given your email reads like you are scolding a disobedient child, if previous emails have read similarly and your ex is feeling aggrieved at your judgement of his parenting, no reply has probably been more of an effort than firing back an angry reply.

I know they are your kids but you are way too invested in trying to change his behaviour. You need to hear your children and give him the headlines, but he is not wanting to take parenting advice from you.

You split up for a reason didnt you? It is about co-existing and co-parenting and supporting your children to get through this stage in their lives. unfortunately.

You have my sympathies as it must be soooo frustrating.

"I feel like you need to be more proactive in the way you parent them and less reactive."

This whole section is awkward. As your ex, you dont really get to tell him how you feel he should change, or explain how you are doing parenting better than him, thats not your call any more. All you can do is tell him what has happened, and a quick "I have to take DS's feelings and decisions into consideration when it comes to visits, but I really dont want DS to end up not wanting to ever see you because of this, you know how to contact me if you want to talk more about this."

Well that was a fucking disaster. Having texted him last night for him not to reply I rang him this morning. He agreed to come round this afternoon but when he got here would not engage with me at all. Ds had already told me he wanted me to talk to his dad but e wouldn't and said he would only talk to ds. They had a bit of a chat and ex gave him a cuddle and promised not to smack him again, but then ds asked me to talk about the lack of routine in the house. Ex completely shut down and obviously thinks it's me putting words in ds's mouth, which it isn't.

They have all gone now and I feel like I have let ds down as he clearly didn't want to go. I have said to ds we have to give dad a chance to act on things and he'll probably be more open without me there, but if he doesn't improve things ds can cut down the amount of time he spends there. Ex wouldn't engage with me at all - what a prick.

I don't really know what else I could have done but I feel awful. He clearly would have ignored an email, but my attempt at face to face hasn't worked either so what do I do now?

I can sort of see your ex's side a little in that it does sound unlikely a kid would want to talk about structure in the home (not saying he didn't). Why doesn't your son just talk to him about it? Sounds like your ex was receptive to him and his views so maybe just step aside and let them work it out together?

You see how this weekend goes. if your DS doesn't want to go again, he doesnt.

Actually OP, I think you'll find smacking IS illegal in England

As I posted previously, smacking is NOT illegal in England. It is illegal in Scotland and Wales but it is currently legal in England provided it is reasonable punishment. If, for example, it causes bruising it is not reasonable punishment and would be illegal.

Why not just send a copy of their house rules - put it in their bags- with the children when they stay.... written by the children themselves.... say you are doing it as their interactions have been difficult to manage and you have found having these rules makes conflict between them less frequent and easier to manage. Emphasise you are doing it for consistency between houses. Encourage the children to use the their house rules to resolve their issues before dad has to become involved. My DH’s ex likes to write very long emails and he immediately switches off to them.... he can almost hear her saying the words and even if she said he’s won a share of the lottery he would probably turn his nose up! Sometimes practical stuff or short and sweet works best. Although to be fair... your ex does sound like a bit of a knob!

Missed a page sorry before posting.... didn’t realise they had left.... your ex may be in the defence but hopefully as he seemed receptive to your son they can talk it through x

If my ex sent me a list of house rules I’d tell him to fuck off.

I mean rules that the kids have come up with to manage their interactions.... not rules like brush your teeth, put plates away, bed by 8 kind of thing. Didn’t OP say her kids had a list they had written? Or have I made that up?

I think both you and your D.C. need to understand that you cannot mediate or control what type of parenting goes on with your ex/their father.

If the DC are genuinely miserable about going, and you have concerns over the “hitting” or other borderline abusive discipline, then worthily contact/agree you’ll support your DC with not going and find childcare instead.

But to a certain extent both you and DC need to realise it’s not possible for you to influence your ex. If it had been, presumably you’d not be divorced and non-communicating.

I never send DP an email longer than a couple of sentences because he’s dyslexic. If email with five sentences or less (there’s a whole movement about this for all emails - people just don’t read them)

I think I’m future try to stay away from the phrase ‘you need to ... understand/do/be’ because it’s hoingnto get his back up. Remove as much emotive language as you can from text. Instead of ‘you need to understand that DS needs a more structured environment’ just out ‘ DS needs a more structured environment to feel safe/happy/secure’ for instance. It’s not possible to disagree that this outcome is he desired one..

Also remember that you can state facts to avoid dispute and blame- ‘when you told DS off for something he didn’t think he’d done you really upset him’ (this is disputable - was it XH that upset him, or DS2..etc) instead ‘when he was told off he was very upset’ - this is indisputable and you can join the dots together to find out how to stop this. It avoids any discussion about whether DS had a ‘right’ to be upset (XH might say - well he hit his brother- he has not right to be upset’)

Sorry. But what I am getting from that is that you massively favour DS1. DS1 hitting DS2 is not ‘violence between them’. It is DS1 hitting DS2.

What I get from that letter is that DS1 is violent to his smaller brother and you are demanding that DS2 is the one who is punished and blamed for his behaviour. That letter is a whole world of fucked up. Poor DS2.

And it sounds like DS1 knows he has you wrapped around his little finger and is playing you off against each other.

Not really sure where you get that from Elton. Both children are ridiculously physical with each other and that is something I am always trying to address, with some success. I'm not sure smacking as a punishment is going to make either of them less violent or physical. I certainly don't want ds2 punished when ds1 hits him and I have spoken to ds1 at length about the fact that him hitting ds2 is not acceptable at all. However, I don't think punishing either of them is the way forward as I have found several strategies that help avoid these behaviours occurring in the first place. This is what I am trying to get ex to see too, but I take on board what others are saying that I can't control what happens in his house. I know that anyway and, as I have said to ds1, if things don't improve the only option is going to be to limit the amount of time they spend there. I know you weren't there Elton but your last post is massively unfair - you think ds1 is playing us off so he can be allowed to hit his brother??

Girlwhowearsglasses That's good advice and if I do email him I will take it. I honestly don't think he'll be receptive to anything I say though, however I phrase it.

I’ll tell you why I get that impression. You spend the entire email talking about DS1 and his feelings. You do not discuss DS2s feelings at all.

You mention DS1s hitting. Yet it is DS2 who you say is ‘stubborn’ and ‘difficult’ and ds2 who needs to ‘be dealt with firmly and with consistency, and that ds1 sees this happening’. Yet you say nothing about dealing with DS1 hitting his smaller brother. DS1 also has no right to be dictating how his younger brother is punished nor that he be entitled to ‘see’ this. It’s DS2 you make a point of saying should be writing the rules. It’s DS2 you are demanding is palmed off so DS1 can have time alone with his Dad.

Do you see the problem here? It’s DS1 who is hitting yet you are criticising the character of DS2 and demanding DS2 is the one dealt with more firmly while also being critical of DS2s character. At the same time you say nothing critical about DS1 and rationalise his bad behaviour.

And yes, it does sound like DS1 is playing you off against each other. It sounds like when he is punished for bad behaviour at his fathers house he comes home and complains to you because he knows you will tell his father not to punish him and deflect the blame onto his younger brother.

Reread your initial post. The only misbehaviour mentioned is DS1 hitting. Yet it is DS2 you criticise and talk about managing DS2s behaviour. By contrast you talk about DS1 in favourable terms and minimise his bad behaviour by deflecting it on to his brother. You give the impression that you think DS1 hitting DS2 is DS2’s fault and that DS2 is therefore the one who must be punished and dealt with firmly.

Can you not see the problem there? The issue is DS1 hitting. Yet most of the email is criticising DS2 and talking about DS2 being properly disciplined. I think you need to have a think about that...

OK, I kind of see where you're coming from, but I still don't agree. The email is all about ds1 because it is he who has said he doesn't want to go to his dad's. Ds2 is more than happy to go so he is not the focus of the email. I said ds2 is stubborn (he is) but I said ds1 has said ex finds 'it' difficult to enforce rules, not that ds2 is difficult. I also didn't say ds2 should write the rules, I said he might enjoy writing them up with coloured pens etc because he does like that sort of thing and I have found it's helped involving them both in creating the rules, though ds1 hates the physical act of writing but does appreciate the rules themselves. I also didn't 'demand' that ds2 be 'palmed off ' - it was a suggestion I made that ds2 spend time with family so ex and ds1 can mend their relationship , which appears to be a little broken atm. Ds2 is happy with his dad so doesn't appear to have that need at this time. I think you've used a lot of emotive terms, and misrepresented/tweaked a lot of what I've said to make it fit your narrative tbh.

As I have said, they both tend to be physical with each other but I feel ex punishes ds1 more about it because he's bigger and I don't think that's fair. I also think ex finds ds2 harder to deal with because he kicks off and that leads to frustration on ds1's part. That absolutely does not excuse hitting, but looking at the causes of hitting is surely part of stopping it? It is absolutely not ds2's fault how ds1 reacts to him, but as an adult, it is ex who is to blame for exacerbating resentments between them when they are in his care. That is what I'm trying to get him to see.

OP, I think you have to step back and let the children’s father parent his way in his time. I know from experience how incredibly hard this is, but you need to.

Sending an email of instructions on how you think he should parent (and I don’t disagree with what you have said) will be ignored and I imagine XP will use it against you as being ‘controlling’.

Fact is, he will parent differently. He might be a shit parent, so you have to teach your DSs resilience. You have to ensure that the behaviour of their father doesn’t cause damage to their relationship as brothers. Basically you’ll be fire-fighting and limiting damage.

The favouritism shown by my XH is extraordinary, and mainly serves himself - he cherry picks the trophy children (goes to the football matches, watches the dance shows, ignores the youngest who won’t engage with him on any significant level because she realised a long time ago how he works). I have no doubt he loves the DCs, but on the one day he has them, he will watch sport on tv, like every other day, and leave them to their own devices. (Literally, hours on gadgets).

I’m done with telling him. Unless they ask to go to his, I don’t facilitate contact. When they come home I make sure they shower and clean their teeth (he won’t have).

Pretty soon your DCs will make their own minds up. In the meantime, you will keep doing what you are doing. Support your DSs but back off and leave their father to it. Hard as that is. You have years and years of this ahead, you can’t spend that time seething in frustration - it will help no one.

And just to add (as if my post wasn’t long enough) my two DSs have a similar relationship to your two. It was exacerbated by the different treatment. DS1 learnt quite early on that he needed to take the initiative to establish the relationship with his DF as DF was oblivious of his needs. DS2 gets his fathers attention (as he is the ‘trophy child’) but also bears the brunt of the put-downs (‘soft-lad’) its always been that way. They are older now (15/16) and I see it’s becoming easier between them as brothers. It’s the brother relationship that is important.

Worth the ‘house rules’ thing. We had some one to one parenting workshops from CAMHS and one whole session was devoted to this. One idea is to write the ‘house rules’ as a family - all together with a sense of working together. I don’t think you can tell your XH to do that, but you might do it with them yourself and then they might suggest hey do it with daddy too? Then they can be different rules but still agreed (they might be allowed to eat in the living room in one house but not the other - and of its agreed together that’s easier for everyone to follow)

I agree with Ohforfoxsakes. I have a similar situation and long emails about it get me nowhere.

You have one way of parenting, he has another and his is quite probably a bit rubbish and more about his own needs. But you will never get him to adopt your style, and emails like this come across as slightly pompous lectures. So he shuts down and doesn't reply.

It is really difficult to see the effects of divisive, toxic or semi-neglectful parenting and not act. I would say, keep the emails short - point out anything unsafe and quote your dc directly if they have a request for something to change.

Then all you can do is talk it all through with your children, involve both in open chat about why the dynamic benefits no one (not even his 'favoured' child) and try and fill in the gaps (as with the teeth cleaning etc from Ohforfox).

I try and get the message across to my dc about why late nights, unlimited sweets and buying stuff seems a fun way to spend a weekend but actually makes them unhappy. They get something healthy when they get back and I am alert for anything actually neglectful that has gone on.

Plus I try and furnish my 8 year old with calm, clear requests for their needs to be met. So there is no doubt about her feelings, for example about sitting in the car for an hour on her own whilst he watches friends play a random rugby match. (How about just having fun with them, given he has 24 days out of every 28 to meet his own needs?! Aargh).

It's true that the dc will eventually work out what good, unselfish parenting is and I'm hoping the danger of losing contact will be a prompt for my ex change. Unfortunately you emailing won't be a prompt - plough your efforts into offsetting his uselessness and giving your dc the tools to spot the really toxic stuff....

And my emails (like this post!) were probably far too long for even an engaged parent to bother with!

It reads like you are giving him an end of year feedback review on his parenting. Way too long, waffly and preachy

(Sorry- didn't read the full thread; got halfway; ignore my comment obv)