Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

999 replies

GladAllOver · 19/02/2018 16:10

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 20/02/2018 08:04

Bertrand,

Ah, so not about consent. Consent can be overridden by ‘medical opinion’. There is no such thing as ‘medical opinion’ on a number of issues (eg cosmetic surgery). It is often divided.

Headofthehive55 · 20/02/2018 08:04

A parent cannot insist a dr does a medical procedure on a child. Ultimately it's the state that decides in cases where medical treatment is witheld or the state via the guardian decides it's in the best interests of the child.

Parental rights do not really exist in the u.k.

larrygrylls · 20/02/2018 08:05

What about cosmetic dentistry? Plenty of children have teeth taken out and braces fitted without consent. Abusive?

Headofthehive55 · 20/02/2018 08:07

Consent is higher than parental will.
Medical need is higher than consent for children only.

Headofthehive55 · 20/02/2018 08:10

Cosmetic dentistry is generally performed on an older child who can consent.
A child can consent - be gillick competent.

larrygrylls · 20/02/2018 08:11

Generally! Not always and frequently the child is coerced into it.

PatriarchyPersonified · 20/02/2018 08:12

larrygrylls

Circumcision is, in a Jewish person’s opinion, allowing the child the option to choose, not ‘forcing’ religion upon them (if that is even possible)

How does that work? Do they store his foreskin for re-attachment if he changes his mind when he gets older?

As Bertrand has said, its about consent to perform unnecessary medical procedures on a child. Parents are allowed to give consent for their children in certain specific circumstances, its not carte blanche.

Would you support my right to give my baby a facial tattoo (for example) if I felt it was critically important to my culture? If not then why not? whats the difference?

Ickyockycocky · 20/02/2018 08:13

It’s child abuse and should be banned. Excusing it as ok because it’s a religious practice is disgusting.

Headofthehive55 · 20/02/2018 08:15

So say a couple adopt an older boy. Age 17. Would they force the op on him without his consent?

Headofthehive55 · 20/02/2018 08:16

Then they are equally bad parents if the coerce.

BertrandRussell · 20/02/2018 08:16

“What about cosmetic dentistry? Plenty of children have teeth taken out and braces fitted without consent. Abusive?”

Without consent? Really?

PatriarchyPersonified · 20/02/2018 08:16

larrygrylls

Generally! Not always and frequently the child is coerced into it.

Are you pulling your arguments out of a hat? What is more coercive than performing unnecessary surgery on a newborn?

Scabbersley · 20/02/2018 08:19

I'd like to meet the person who could have coerced my 11 year old dd to have her train tracks fitted!

SuburbanRhonda · 20/02/2018 08:22

What about cosmetic dentistry? Plenty of children have teeth taken out and braces fitted without consent. Abusive?

No, orthodontic treatments are carried out by trained professionals because of the evidence that misaligned teeth can cause problems with the jaw in later life. The fact that it “looks better” is a positive side effect but is not the purpose of the procedure.

larrygrylls · 20/02/2018 08:23

Rhonda,

Rubbish! That is nhs orthodontics. Most orthodontic treatment is private and purely cosmetic.

larrygrylls · 20/02/2018 08:25

And most parents tell children ‘you are having two teeth out as you need it’, they don’t have a balanced conversation about pros and cons or accept their child’s possible opinion that they would prefer crooked teeth. No, they are not dragged kicking and screaming but it is s long way from informed consent.

BertrandRussell · 20/02/2018 08:25

“Rubbish! That is nhs orthodontics. Most orthodontic treatment is private and purely cosmetic.”

And performed on Gillick competent children.

user838383 · 20/02/2018 08:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SuburbanRhonda · 20/02/2018 08:32

And most parents tell children ‘you are having two teeth out as you need it’, they don’t have a balanced conversation about pros and cons or accept their child’s possible opinion that they would prefer crooked teeth.

How can you possibly know what conversations go on between children and their parents about orthodontic treatment? You’re clutching at straws now.

nolongersurprised · 20/02/2018 08:34

I think Australia will head this way too, eventually. Some of the main opponents to routine neonatal circumcision and the paeds surgical body. It’s already been banned from public hospitals. They get referred the botched circumcisions from the community, mind you.

larry I think your analogies need work. Last thread you used the example of children with “hare lips” (your terminology) and the repair thereof as non essential surgery and therefore somehow equatable to neonatal circumcision. This was a particularly uneducated comparison that ignored the vast difficulties children with even subtle cleft lip and/or palates can have with feeding, speaking and jaw development and dentition .

This time, you’re equating it with braces. How on earth is a 12 plus year old child going to open their mouths for an hour plus to have the metal wear inserted if they don’t want to?

user838383 · 20/02/2018 08:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beepthemeep · 20/02/2018 08:38

When you have posters who can dismiss everything said here as a "snide attempt to call Jews and Muslims child abusers" and others trying to argue that it's essential for THEM and THEIR religion to have the child cut, or who dismiss references to actual frequent practices in some countries as "islamophobia" rather than acknowledging it happens and being glad it doesn't happen here - well, you're just not dealing with a rational thought process. You're dealing with people trying to defend what their family has done/what they've done.

Of course it's important to the religion. My goodness, if you didn't indoctrinate people from a very young age, however would you keep it going? The whole point is not to let them have a free choice (As to which see the huge decline in Christians attending church in the U.K., precisely because our society has moved on [and also because we have welcomed a lot of other religions and cultures] which have increased the population). So all those parents patting themselves on the back for doing a great religious thing are just buying into the same old pattern.

For some people it can also mean becoming quite closed off from other communities - to give just a tiny example, I once worked with a lovely Jewish girl, whose second sentence to everyone was, "and I'm Jewish." She wouldn't go out and socialise with everyone else, because she always had to do stuff with her family, and she had never dated/wanted to date anyone who wasn't Jewish (then she wondered why it was hard to find a boyfriend when she'd made the pool so much smaller!!). i just can't understand saying, "oh I could never date a black man/Asian chap/Muslim dude/atheist". To me, you take everyone as you find them, and then you decide if you like them. But to her, it was an immediate split: Jewish or not, and people were then treated accordingly - friend/boyfriend or acquaintance. I had another colleague who was a devout Christian. She'd never dated anyone because she was committed to no pre-marital sex, and she left work early every thu and fri to teach that to the teenage youth group at her church (wonder how that worked out!!). She also wouldn't come out and socialise with work or clients at all, preferring to rush off to her church and her family.

Of course not everyone is like that. But that's how some people are, because religions like to keep you close once they've got you!

Bluelady · 20/02/2018 08:55

Male circumcision is endorsed by the World Health Organisation.

www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

SuburbanRhonda · 20/02/2018 08:59

Did you seriously take that statement as “WHO endorsing circumcision”, bluekady?

WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

Elendon · 20/02/2018 08:59

Circumcision for medical reasons will still be allowed in Iceland. It may well prove traumatic for those needing it though as it will have the stigma of being 'a barbaric and mutilating practice'. I have two brothers who needed it done, one was pre puberty, the other as a young man.

I agree it should be stopped with the caveat that it's stopped because it's an unnecessary procedure unless for medical reasons.