Is it ever acceptable?

[Spexfactor]

Named changed for obv reasons.

2 1/2 years ago me and dh had massive row ending up with him between me and dd as a 6 month old. I was furious and desperate to get to her so I dug my nails into his back, he turned around and hit me on the arm 3 times and pushed me into the door. I had bruises for days. I don’t remember what the argument was about but at the time he was very jealous that I got to spend so much more time with dd as I was on mat leave.

Today we got started on a simple discussion that escalated quickly. After he got to shouting at me I said could he just let me out of the car (he was driving). I must have asked him 10 times. I just wanted to get away from his screaming. I literally had my hands over my ears.

He wouldn’t let me out and hit me in his anger. With a fist on my arm.

I know it’s not acceptable to hit anyone but do I break my family up for this? I swore if he hit me again I’d go but is two punches in 3 years a deal breaker? Could it be called domestic violence or is that vastly overdramatic?

You are completely misunderstanding my post Tor. I know victims of domestic violence don't call the police. Honestly I do. Seven years of personal abuse tells me that plus the courses I have done since. YOU mentioned that you would call the police if this happened to you. This is because you are approaching the situation and describing the husband as a well meaning person on the end of an unprovoked attack who is acting totally reasonably. It is clear to many posters reading this that the husband is not behaving reasonably, he is behaving abusively but you don't understand that because you don't understand the dynamics of domestic abuse. A man who is jealous of his wife because she spends more time with their child and who reacts aggressively to block her from her child on these grounds and who on other occasions is aggressively violent to and punches her is NOT the victim here. The wife is.

What would I do if my husband wanted to get to my child? I would let him because I wouldn't ever have blocked him in the first place and I certainly wouldn't be attacking and punishing him because paternity leave meant he got more time with her, so this situation could never have arisen because to feel like that and attack the other parent in any way over it is abusive in itself. I would be talking about how to even things up to make us both have more time with our child because it simply would not occur to me to attack him and make it his fault that wasn't happening in the first place.

It's not self defence. Self defence is like for like. It has to be reasonable. Punching in the face is not reasonable.

Even the OP's partner didn't go that far - but he did hit her and push her into a door - which is also disproportionate.

A man using his strength and build to stop a mother getting to her child is a well-known domestic abuse tactic.

Violence is never acceptable; you need to leave him

I don't see how I've misunderstood your post. You said "[they didn't call the police] which one would expect if they were dealing with ..."

I like to think I would call the police but I don't pretend to know exactly how I would react if this situation were to arise. I do know that if someone dug their nails in my back I would swing around and hit them as hard as I could - this has happened (professionally, not domestically) and it's what I did.

I may well be describing the husband as a well meaning victim in the first incident as that's how I see it. I certainly can't force myself to side with the OP because she's a woman and he's a man and 98% of DV is committed by men (we'll let that erroneous stat stand; it makes no difference here).

The second incident described in the car is clearly not the OP's fault, as I've already said.

Someone mentioned vitriol towards the OP. I can't see any of that. @lana's and yours (to a certain extent) are infuriating because of the sexism and blindness due to the sex of the people involved.

You didn't say how the sexes are relevant. How are they? I think the difficulty in 1-2-1 safe restraint mitigates likely strength differences. What other reason do you have for sexes making a difference to an opinion besides sexism?

You completely (deliberately) missed the point of my question about your husband. Remember, in this situation, the person wanting to get at the baby was so worked up that they attacked the other person's back with their nails. Would you not sense escalating issues and not want this person near your baby?

It's fucked up that you still say that the husband provoked the OP. Him making her feel like that "is abuse in itself" and he deserved the physical attack. That's a very, very sad opinion and I get the feeling it's never one which you would use if the sexes were reversed. "He was desperate to have the baby so he attacked you but you started the abuse". Fucking unbelievable!

I think I can just say I disagree with every word you post and that will suffice won't it? You don't understand, you don't want to and I haven't got all day to explain it, none so blind and all that...

OP I hope you come back, lots of people do get it and I hope you manage to get yourself out of this situation.

SaskaTchewan
Are you really trying to say that learning self-defense makes you a domestic abuser?

No of course learning self defence does not make you a domestic abuser.

What was described by torBrowser was not really the application of 'learnt self-defence' but an over violent way of dealing with an upset wife in a way that would sound good.

My own DH would be quite capable of stopping what happened without either hitting me and pushing me into a door in such a way I was bruised for days; or. as torBrowser suggests,palm striking my nose, elbow to the side of my head or kick the side of m knee.

This torBrowser version of a good reaction sounds to me like a soldier's not a D husband's.

Please, both of you need to do this out of sight of your dd. It's not good or healthy for her.

Yes, this is violence and it won't change. You both need to grow up and go seek some counselling or separate for the sake of dd. She's the most important out of this.

@terftastic (interesting name)

"Self defence is like for like."

No

"It has to be reasonable."

Yes

"Punching in the face is not reasonable."

No

You do not have to wait to be attacked. If you feel that you or your charge is in imminent danger then you can act. A palm strike to the face or kick to the knee is minimal and effective and is proven in court to be seen as reasonable force.

Lack of time to assess a threat is also a mitigating circumstance ie. if I feel your nails in my back then spinning and striking in one movement is more acceptable than turning, backing off, defending and then striking.

tl;dr - grab me from behind violently then I'll hit you in the face and any UK court will be on my side. HTH

Oh my I’ll try to answer some of these points.

I think some people are really inventing things I said - there was no gouging at any point and dh punched me in the car. It definitely wasn’t a slap.

Our discussion started out really innocuously- I had no concept that it might end in an angry reaction from him. We had turned on to a residential road near our home and were going slowly. I asked to be let out because I was in walking distance from home and just wanted a break from being screamed at. I wasn’t matching him. I was calm and just wanted to be free. I think he was unjustified at this point. What I wanted thoughts on was, can it be thought of as a patten if it’s happened so sporadically?

I don’t think I’m innocent. I know I was violent when I scratched him. I’m pretty sure I’m not a cunt though. Clearly there’s a whole history and two sides to every story. Our baby was in hospital the first 12 weeks of her life and he was jealous if I sat down on the side of her incubator she was facing. That I got to hold her first when she was 10 days old. That I changed more nappies than he did. I didn’t know this was a problem until he went mental at me in the family room one time. So there was a lot of history as to why I was so anxious to get to her when he stepped between us. I was trying to comfort her and he was being possessive. I spoke to my gp at the time. And it seemed as though the difficulty of the birth and subsequent difficulties cause dh a kind of PND. Most of which he’s got over but at the time I said to myself if he hits me again I’ll leave.

I spoke to him after I thought he had calmed down to say that it was acceptable to hit me. I was physically abused by my father so he knows I find violence upsetting. He ended blaming me and saying how one hit would mean I’d take dd away from him. He tried to imply it wasnt that hard. It was. It hurt. It still hurts.

He then decided to say he’d kill himself if I left him and took dd away. He went to the kitchen to grab a knife and actually pulled a very blunt table knife out across his wrist. He threw the draw on the floor with all the sharp knives on and fell on the floor himself sobbing.

Dd was in the car. I’m not sure how much she saw. She knew I was upset. She was in the living room when he was sobbing so I turned on the telly loudly so she couldn’t hear. I was calm at that point because I thought he was being ridiculous and deeply inappropriate to behave that way in front of our daughter.

I’m not ashamed of my behaviour today. I think I acted reasonably. I think I had a right to be let out of the car. I didn’t start an argument. And I didn’t bend to his emotional blackmail.

He’s told me he knows he was wrong now. I’ve told said I won’t be responsible for his emotions - it’s not for me to stay with him cos he’d kill himself if I left. He knows he’s got to go to counselling otherwise we can’t carry on.

Thank you for those who’ve offered support.

@wilwindsblowing

"This torBrowser version of a good reaction sounds to me like a soldier's not a D husband's."

I didn't know there was a 'good DH' way to react to having their DW dig their nails into their back.

Thank goodness you came back.

You've already put up with too much and so has your child. What's your family support like? Have you got anywhere to go? This relationship is just awful and he is highly abusive. It's time to leave and I think you know this. I understand though that you're probably frightened because he would have your daughter unsupervised, I know I was. How would you feel about that?

He's got problems and needs help immediately for the sake of dd

I hope you'll be OK Spex and that your DH can be helped by counselling. It sounds as though he is in a dangerous and fragile mental state right now, but you can't take that on on your own even if you love him and feel sympathetic.

Please make your own safety and your child's a priority.

tor you got this wrong. You should accept it and slink away from the thread in shame if you're not going to offer OP support. I don't think you will though, you'll insist on hanging around trumpeting your whatabouttery, defending your damaging views and derailing the thread.

Also I did think of calling the police when he was lying on the floor sobbing and screaming at me. I did think about it when he eventually stopped the car. I didn’t because I wasn’t sure there’d be any proof he hit me.

I worry like crazy that he’ll hit dd.

No one hit anyone in the face at any point.

I scratched his back. He stood up, turned around, hit my arm three times leaving bruises that were there 3 weeks later and then pushed me into the side of the door so the sharp lock bit of the door cut in my side. Even if I did start it his reaction was not self defence or proportional.

@MsGameandWatching

I've never seen anyone actually sound smug about being right on a DV thread.

I based everything I said on the posts by the OP.

Well done for being right. I bet you feel very big and clever.

Do your family know what's going on?

Oh bore off.

OP I really think you are the more responsible one here. After reading about his 'suicide attempt' which I don't think it really was. Believe me, my brother committed suicide and usually they don't mention it. My ex used to be abusive and manipulative and many times when I tried to get away he used the suicide card Insensitively. My courage to leave came from dp. I knew he'd protect me from my ex.

But that's what this guy is. Manipulate and if he's willing to hit you, what about dd? Whilst I agree you shouldn't have gone about getting to 6 month old dd like you did, i can now see why you did.

Do you have family you can count on? To live with with dd for a while? This guy needs help. Mental health help. He cannot control his anger and frustration. It it's over dd then you need scheduled supervised visits if you're worried he will hurt her. Again, we aren't seeing this truly from your side. I'm going on what you're written.

I've been hit. Scratched, slapped and beaten by my ex. Manipulated and even blackmailed by my ex. You need to get out.
Personally for you though. I think you need a bit of help too to get your mind straight.

There’s only my sister left. I told her about the argument. When I speak to her later I’ll fill her in on the rest. She doesn’t know about the knife drawer business.

He blamed her for me wanting to leave though. This is beginning to freak me out. He’s trying to turn me against my closest relative.

I would bet torBrowser is not a woman - and best ignored. I've never heard women advocate using violence in such terms, or use language like that to a woman who has just been punched.

OP - he sounds unstable - dangerously so. I do think this will happen again. To answer your initial question - no it is not acceptable. This is not a good environment for your DD.

And no, don't let him turn you against your sister! Classic abuser.

I'm utterly appalled by torBrowser's posts. There are a few posters with an apparent lack of understanding, hence the 'both as bad as each other' nonsense but torBrowser is aggressive and downright mean to the op.

Stay safe Spex, best of luck for whatever you decide to do.

Sorry about the shitty posts you’ve had, I don’t think any rational person could possibly argue that you are ‘as bad’ as him. Of course you’re not.

That sounds scary OP. I genuinely think you should get as far away from this man as possible. You said yourself that you worry he would assault your DD and even if he didn’t witnessing domestic violence is emotional abuse. Please protect yourself and your child, neither of you deserve to live in fear. If I were you I would speak to the local domestic violence officer at your police station too. This behaviour needs UK be reported so that you can ensure contact between your DD and her father in the future is supervised and safe, he sounds like the type to use her against you when you leave. My abusive XH threatened to kidnap my son during a contact visit when we separated, it was terrifying