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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to not understand all the trans stuff...?

133 replies

cansomeoneexplain · 15/02/2018 22:06

I've NC for this.

Apologies first off if this thread sounds dumb, ignorant or goady. I genuinely don't mean to come across that way.

I read a lot of 'trans' topics on here mainly in the feminism boards. I do feel like I've missed something entirely.

On MN there appears to be a growing number of concern for trans women 'taking' the rights of women as their own.

I don't use Twitter but a lot of links get referenced to that regards transgender people trying to 'erase' females etc. I have clicked on the links referenced on MN to Twitter and even google and the guardian and find that it appears on the surface to be true.

However I feel like I've missed something fundamental. A few years ago I hardly ever saw six topics on MN - maybe I wasn't reading the right threads at the time? I don't really socialise much outside of work but when I do, none of my social circle ever mentions such things regarding trans issues. I watch the news but I don't really see anything there pertaining to trans people taking away women's rights.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm only made aware of it via mumsnet (apart from the male transgender weightlifter who competed in a women's event).

So can I ask the more enlightened of you, has this always been an issue or has it only recently just come about?

Why does it seem to be such a strong theme on MN but hardly anywhere else I look? Like I said I don't use Twitter at all unless someone post a link to something specific.

How can trans people possibly 'take away the rights of women'? How can that even be legal? Have new laws been passed that I'm not aware of?

I hope I don't come across as goady but I really would appreciate someone taking the time to fill me in especially as I can't seem to log on to MN these days without seeing similar threads re trans issues over and over. Also I don't understand how all these abbreviations have come about like TERF, TRA, etc. I'd genuinely never heard of them til a month or so ago. No one talks about this stuff irl.

Is it something kids are being taught in schools, the whole trans/non binary thing? I don't know what half of it means. I feel like I'm in some parallel universe reading some of the threads on here. I go to work and these issues aren't mentioned at all. I take care of my kids outside of work. What have I missed?

Sorry that was long. I'd appreciate genuine replies to this post, I'm not looking for a bun fight, just honest answers.

Thanks all in advance

OP posts:
Jaynesworld · 16/02/2018 11:33

I think equality laws will be one huge gigantic mess.

For example, a man who gets paid significantly more than his female counterpart, decides to self identify as a female (either by his own choice, or from persuasion from his employer). Now he is classed as a woman, there is no gender pay gap.
I know the likelyhood of the above happening is slim, but coorporations and people go to extreme lengths for money.

Trans and sex are protected characteristics. With self id sex will no longer be a protected characteristic, because what will define what a female/male is? TRAs believe you are not a male/female at birth, you decide what sex you are, not biology.

Jaynesworld · 16/02/2018 12:26

Also forgot to add. Trans would no longer be a protected characteristic, because no one would be trans. It would be either male/female depending on which you choose to be.
The only winners are men.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/02/2018 12:47

I guess you are lucky if you have not come across it in real life, or maybe you don't work in health care, social care, children and young people's services, education, academia or similar areas where the issue has arisen in respect to encroachment on women's spaces, the silencing of intellectual freedom and the 'transing' of children. I paddle in a couple of these ponds so MN is a safe space for me to be able to discuss the kinds of things that I see and face in my working life. Plus, I have to interact with a few TRAs who really worry me.

cansomeoneexplain · 16/02/2018 12:53

@YetAnotherSpartacus I work in academia but can't say I directly deal or have to face these issues. The only thing that came to my attention was when our department was refurbished recently and we had unisex toilets installed for equality and inclusion purposes.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/02/2018 13:00

See, I'd count the toilets as 'coming across' the issue (outside of Mumsnet). :)

Jaynesworld · 16/02/2018 13:05

@cansomeoneexplain the question you asked about the equality act, has got me thinking. If trans and sex no longer become protected characteristics. It would obviusly mean that the equality act is not fit for purpose. What happens to the other protected characteristics like race and disability? Would they still be protected?

Geronimoleapinglizards · 16/02/2018 13:06

Op I was in your shoes not so long ago

This whole war has sprung up out if nowhere and half the population don't even seem to have any idea it's going on.

I would never discuss this on Facebook for fear of being branded a bigot and worse. The potential repercussiobs are genuinely frightening. I recently reached out privately to 4 feminist friends to ask them to fill in the form for the Scottish consultation. I chose those 4 very carefully indeed as they seemed they must all be gender critical. Three were glad I emailed and shared they felt the same. One was clearly appalled and asked me to consider how transwomen felt given they're so oppressed and abused

I've no doubt some trans people are on the receiving end of abuse and I don't want that to be the case. I want society to be safe and nice for everyone. But I don't women's rights being trampled on.

There really are very few places you can discuss these issues hence why there are so many threads on here. This is the most important issue women have tackled in the last 50 years so please keep asking questions, reading about it and taking part in the debate. Tra's want to shut down all debate. That's not the way forward.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 16/02/2018 13:12

Also you asked earlier in the thread if people are really losing their jobs or getting doxxed over this issue.

Yes they definitely are. Have a read of this thread

Datun · 16/02/2018 13:35

cansomeoneexplain

It's really difficult topic, at the moment. It seems to have mushroomed in the last few months.

As a result, the feminist boards are being inundated with tactical manoeuvres to distract, derail and undermine. (With the singularly significant omission of a credible counter argument). Which accounts for the suspicion of new posters!

In terms of the issue, this isn't something that has happened overnight, but you are now seeing the results of quite a few years of quiet, but relentless transactivist 'marketing'.

As the results become more ridiculous, frequent and mainstream, people are suddenly waking up to what it all means, in real life.

I think you mentioned the Transgendertrend schools' guidance? It was written to counteract the propaganda that is been fed into primary and secondary schools, at the moment.

It takes the stance that all children should be treated with the same amount of respect and dignity.

Not that someone identifying as trans should be treated in a special or elevated way. (Something, that if you read the information sent out by trans pressure groups, is very prevalent.)

And that gender nonconformity is entirely normal. Given that 2000 children are year are showing up to gender clinics and only a fraction of them will be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, there are an awful lot of confused children around.

The guide also specifically talks about the equality act. As much as it needs to be fair to everyone, not just people protected by 'gender reassignment'.

The equality act has sex as a protected characteristic, and also gender reassignment as a protected characteristic.

(Gender reassignment is a misleading term, because it can mean you have just told somebody that you are trans. That's it. By using the words 'the process of becoming trans'.)

There has been a cultural shift to interpret the equality act as elevating the rights of gender reassignment, over sex.

This can be challenged.

And public perception also needs to change. People have become conditioned to accept the trans-pressure group narrative.

The laws were originally designed for the privacy of a specific transperson (human rights court, I think). Because they wanted privacy as to their original sex when changing jobs. And it was thought that, given there were only about 5000 transsexuals, it would be a negligible bit of legislation.

Cut to today, when men are competing as women, girl guides are housing boys and girls together, all women shortlists are under threat, rapists are being transferred to female prisons, 2000 children a year think they are the opposite sex, and every cross dressing fetishist in the country, (who is as far from transsexual as you could possibly be) is jumping on the bandwagon.

Then there are all the misogynistic, bullying men who are flocking to the movement as a means of telling women to shut the fuck up. And your common or garden voyeurs, predators and pervs taking advantage wherever they can dream up a place to do so.

In terms of self identification: It's a legal way of acquiring the 'sex' woman. At the moment, you have to be over 18, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and live as the opposite sex for two years. There is cross-party support to eliminate all three criteria. So just download a form and post it off. Your gender recognition certificate arrives in the post the following day.

That piece of legislation has a direct impact on prisons and all women shortlists.

It's the equality act that has the impact on sport and sex segregation.

Women are organising collectively, over both issues. To preserve sex segregation and to maintain the criteria for a gender recognition certificate.

But. It is public opinion and making people understand that is pivotal.

Jaynesworld · 16/02/2018 13:59

@datun can i ask you a question? So if self id passes into actual law. What would happen to the equality act? Does it still stand?

SluttyButty · 16/02/2018 14:54

I can’t thank you enough for this. It’s explained things in a way that I can understand. At least now I’m informed about what’s going on so ta.

therealposieparker · 16/02/2018 15:01

If the word woman ceases to mean woman women will have no protections in law.

Flamingowings · 16/02/2018 15:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Flamingowings · 16/02/2018 16:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jaynesworld · 16/02/2018 16:27

Thank you @flamingowings for clearing that up for me.

Terfragette · 16/02/2018 16:46

There are only two camps of Mumsnet female members on this matter.

(1) Ones who have educated themselves on this issue and are very worried indeed and wanting to campaign to protect women.

(2) One that have no idea what it's about.

Terfragette · 16/02/2018 16:53

ChelleDawg2020

You have got it completely wrong, sorry.

Datun · 16/02/2018 16:54

Jaynesworld

@datun can i ask you a question? So if self id passes into actual law. What would happen to the equality act? Does it still stand?

The two are separate. But at the same time as wanting self ID to get a gender recognition certificate, they want to change the wording in the EA from gender reassignment to gender identity.

The protected characteristic gender reassignment does, currently, involve at the very least, the reasonable expectation that the person is going to transition.

Gender identity dispenses with the idea that there is anything to transition from or to.

The problem with the equality law is that it's all based around fairness and reason.

There are few hard and fast actual rules. And a lot more about interpretation, and how that can be justified.

The exemptions rely on the wording 'a proportionate means to a legitimate aim'. And it is that concept that has to uphold your decision.

So, take sports.

It's understood that the equality act can align itself with sex segregation in sport, because sex (as a woman) is a protected characteristic, and they would be disadvantaged by competing against men.

So it's fair to 'discriminate' against men by excluding them.

On the basis that they have a physical advantage. I think the actual wording says something like that 'if one man would beat most women', that's how you tell they have an advantage. Not going Duh! Of course they do.

So I'm guessing, trans-activism got involved with the IOC to discuss this. And claimed that if you could reduce the advantage, then the equality law would be upheld.

Which they seem to have bought. Because their determinant is testosterone. Lower the testosterone, and eliminate the advantage.

Except they lowered it down to a still male level, and higher than almost any woman could achieve.

I have no idea how they did that.

But having come to understand transactivism works, I should imagine they were given examples of women who had freakishly high testosterone as the benchmark.

I don't mean normal women athletes.

This is borne out by the fact that men are beating (shit hot) women at a rate of knots.

And, of course, testosterone cannot possibly be the only marker. There is height, lung capacity, heart capacity, the way haemoglobin works, apparently. And other markers that a biologist would be better qualified to talk about.

That is an example of someone attempting to work within the equality law, based on the wording, and not being challenged by the obvious lack all the other criteria that makes men stronger.

I'm going to start a thread, when I've worked it out in my head, outlining all this. And showing how women can push back.

Because they can.

They must.

Flamingowings · 16/02/2018 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PencilsInSpace · 16/02/2018 19:37

IOC are not bound by the equality act. They're international and EA is UK law.

PencilsInSpace · 16/02/2018 19:46

Good basic info on proposed changes to the law here.

Helen Saxby's excellent account of how this debate has played out here.

Frankiewears · 16/02/2018 20:03

What exactly does it mean when a biological man says he ‘feels’ like a woman?

In what sense?

Flamingowings · 16/02/2018 21:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 16/02/2018 22:54

IOC are not bound by the equality act. They're international and EA is UK law

Bugger. That's that theory out the window then.

In terms of competing in this country, can the IOC guidelines overrule our equality act?

Do they only apply to the Olympics?

I'm thinking of Lauren Jeska. The transwoman who stabbed the official in the neck because she was about to get caught out over testosterone samples.

They were using the IOC guidelines, presumably?

Everytime I think I've got a handle on this, and another bit of legislation crawls out of the woodwork and fucks me over.

Datun · 16/02/2018 23:15

*Frankiewears

What exactly does it mean when a biological man says he ‘feels’ like a woman?

In what sense?

You'll never get an answer. Because there isn't one. It can't be about wearing dresses, because that's a stereotype.

So they don't tell you. They just say they know.

The reason they can't tell you is because being a woman is not a feeling.

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