Aibu to not understand all the trans stuff...?

[cansomeoneexplain]

I've NC for this.

Apologies first off if this thread sounds dumb, ignorant or goady. I genuinely don't mean to come across that way.

I read a lot of 'trans' topics on here mainly in the feminism boards. I do feel like I've missed something entirely.

On MN there appears to be a growing number of concern for trans women 'taking' the rights of women as their own.

I don't use Twitter but a lot of links get referenced to that regards transgender people trying to 'erase' females etc. I have clicked on the links referenced on MN to Twitter and even google and the guardian and find that it appears on the surface to be true.

However I feel like I've missed something fundamental. A few years ago I hardly ever saw six topics on MN - maybe I wasn't reading the right threads at the time? I don't really socialise much outside of work but when I do, none of my social circle ever mentions such things regarding trans issues. I watch the news but I don't really see anything there pertaining to trans people taking away women's rights.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm only made aware of it via mumsnet (apart from the male transgender weightlifter who competed in a women's event).

So can I ask the more enlightened of you, has this always been an issue or has it only recently just come about?

Why does it seem to be such a strong theme on MN but hardly anywhere else I look? Like I said I don't use Twitter at all unless someone post a link to something specific.

How can trans people possibly 'take away the rights of women'? How can that even be legal? Have new laws been passed that I'm not aware of?

I hope I don't come across as goady but I really would appreciate someone taking the time to fill me in especially as I can't seem to log on to MN these days without seeing similar threads re trans issues over and over. Also I don't understand how all these abbreviations have come about like TERF, TRA, etc. I'd genuinely never heard of them til a month or so ago. No one talks about this stuff irl.

Is it something kids are being taught in schools, the whole trans/non binary thing? I don't know what half of it means. I feel like I'm in some parallel universe reading some of the threads on here. I go to work and these issues aren't mentioned at all. I take care of my kids outside of work. What have I missed?

Sorry that was long. I'd appreciate genuine replies to this post, I'm not looking for a bun fight, just honest answers.

Thanks all in advance

Thanks @bridgetbishop and @MaisyPops. I am genuine I don't understand why I only see rampant trans discussion on MN and not anywhere else, so whilst I understand the issues I don't understand why it's so prevalent on here.

People like girlscout and titchy put people off wanting to find it more as they accused of being thick and goady and I deliberately highlighted in my opening post that I didn't want a bun fight, just answers in a relatively unbiased way.

Thanks for getting involved in discussion with me without making me feel like a social leper for not having the background information There's so many threads on the feminism board but I thought it would be easier to just ask 'how has this come about?' Than trawl through pages of information trying to find that information. Maisy, you covered it well and more than happy to be educated.

Just wish people wouldn't jump on the 'report this thread' boat without actually having the foresight to realise we don't all live in a mumsnet bubble.

Or a Twitter one for that matter.

No worries.
There's been a big explosion because the trans lobby have bevome increasingly militant and aggressive.
People tend to discuss it on anonymous forums because there have been peoppe bullied out their jobs for having gender critical views. The lobby cry 'transphobe' and put pressure on the company to get rid because they don't want their reputation pulled through the mud.

Most people have no issues with men/women who wish to fully transition. What people have an issue with is self ID, no questions asked, the rewriting of language to deny basic biological facts and a systematic campaign not for trans rights but for the erosion of women's rights (e.g. the trans lobby don't lobby for unisex toilets for anyone to use. They lobby for unisex toilets with/without urinals. So what they are actually wanting is men in thr women's but not the other way round)

Another reason the discussion is prevelant here is that MNHQ have been resolute in allowing this discussion to continue. Their line is that they are not here to censor us.

TRAs tried very hard to get MN to shut this conversation down or at least confine it to feminism and MN have refused.

Lots of other places online have caved under the pressure and don't allow discussion of gender critical viewpoints to be aired, they censor them as "transphobia".

Go Mumsnet! Long may the discussions continue. In trying to get threads like this taken down it's doing women a disservice.

Thank you for this thread. I've learnt a lot. It is scary.

I think you hear it more on here then anywhere else is that this is an anonymous forum. You can pretty much say what you feel (within reason) without any repercussions that you would in 'real life', twitter, facebook etc. To state biological fact such as females have vaginas, labia, a uterus etc will be seen as being 'transphobic' and could cost you your job. Any talk of opposing or even questioning the trans issue is seen as 'transphobic' and could cost you your job.
The media is very biased on this topic, they actually exclude women from the debate, even though we will be negatively impacted by this.

The issue at hand is not about trans people. It is TRAs (trans rights activists) that we and feminists (who disagree with self identification), have a problem with.

Self identification will erode womens rights. Anyone will be able to enter womens "safe spaces" with no need to actually be trans. You just need to declare I AM A WOMAN.

Children are being medicated with very harmful drugs, which leads to infertility, brittle bones, shrivelled genetalia.

TRAs (who are usually biologically male) have proven to be very, very aggresive and violent. Some of their very vocal and prominent members have very dubious pasts with regards to sexual violence towards women and children. They have also been physically violent towards women who disagree with them. A TRA MTF trans (male to female) punched a 60 year old woman in the face when she expressed concern about self identification.
TRAs advocate rape on lesbians, google cotton ceiling or look on twitter.
TRAs dont want a 3rd safe space for the trans community. They want EASY access to womens safe spaces and prisons etc. Trans people can already access safe spaces with a GRC (gender recognition certificate), I think the reason for TRAs not wanting to get a GRC and want self identification is that they wouldnt actually get a GRC as they do not actually suffer from gender dysphoria and are in fact predatory, autogynephilic (sexually aroused by dressing as women).
TRAs are advocating the medicalisation of children with harmful drugs (as mention above).

TRAs are the people the government and businesses are listening too. They are not listening to women, men or trans people.

That's just awful @Jaynesworld. If it wasnt for MN i would be completely oblivious to the issues facing women. I wonder how many of my female friends know about this stuff IRL. Or male ones for that matter.

A year ago, nay, even up until just before new year, TRA's wouldn't have even been on my radar. Surely something can be done to address the issues without being labelled transphobe? Whats to stop somebody else coming along and redefining what is and what isn't? It's very worrying indeed.

@cansomeoneexplain if it wasnt for mumsnet I would be oblivious too. I didnt know about the children untill a few days ago and i am appauled and scared for the future. A lot of people see it as an attack on trans people, a lot of these threads (wrongly, in my opinion) use trans when they really mean TRAs. Because the media is very heavily into censorship on this topic no one really hears it in the mainstream and when they do its usually the TRAs they hear, and they are usually on their best behaviour and can be quite convincing that they just want a fair system for trans people. Social media is when their true colours appear.

I believe the majority of the fuss boils down to one or both of the following:

1. Certain women see trans women as being a threat. They believe that trans women are actually men pretending to be women so that they can enter women's facilities in order to rape or otherwise sexually abuse them.

2. They believe that gender is set at birth and cannot be changed. Women are women, men are men. A trans woman is just a man pretending to be a woman because he wants to benefit from the rights women have, whilst still benefiting from the privileges men have.

In either case, the "problem" is the underlying belief that a man who wants to become a woman is not doing so from any genuine feeling, he is doing so to attack women, physically or psychologically (the belief that a man can be a "better" woman than a woman can).

I have said this repeatedly, but I will say it again: either a person CAN change gender, or they CANNOT. As a society we need to decide the answer to this. Currently we are in the ridiculous position of trans people being recognised as being of a different gender in some scenarios but not others.

chelle. I've never seen 1) expressed on MN or elsewhere.

The fear is not that trans-women are a threat, but that by removing the safeguards currently in place, it will allow predatory MEN to abuse the provision put in place for trans-woman. Proposals will mean it will no longer be possible to distinguish between genuine trans women and others who plan to abuse those provisions.

I thought it was sex that couldn't be changed as that is what you are determined at birth due to your physical anatomy?

To me gender is a myth, a completely made up thing to ensure 'boys' stick to certain types of pursuit and 'girls' stick to others and there's no in between (or have I got that wrong?). Which is complete bollocks as girls and boys should be able to choose things which don't conform to gender stereotyping I.e boys should be able to play with dolls and prams etc and girls should be able to play with a train set or meccano - both without drawing labels from it or being told they're the wrong sex.

I thought it wassexthat couldn't be changed as that is what you are determined at birth due to your physical anatomy?
You are right.
Sex is biological.
Gender is social.

What TRA are saying is 'i am a woman because i like stereotypical female intetests and eyelimer and dresses' aka performing gender stereotypes means you are the opposite sex.

And that's where the issue is. TRA have successfully altered the language around sex/gender to the point where some use them interchangably (hence some of the cruder phrases on the feminist boarss e.g. people with penises).

I remember my first move on a trans thrwad where i mentioned explaining trans in a school pshe lesson and i was absolutely ripped apart for explaining that some people feel they are trapped in the wrong body. I remember thinking 'sheesh. Chill out. I'm just explaining it from the perspective of a transitioning person. It doesn't mean i personally believe in blue brain/pink brain'. Then i found out about TRA and understood that people weren't being dickheads to me personally, more expressing concern over a wider push to rewrite sex/gender.
I still will talk about "someone who is trans feels..." but i am also very open about the difference between transsexuals and people who are transitioning and self identification

others will be reading it and learning about what's going on for the first time.

Except I think very strongly we are now veering into the territory of putting people off reading MN. Which is a standard TRA strategy. Hence my suspicions.

Did you know that Girlguiding is no longer single sex? They have decided to allow trans girls and TIMs to join but leaders are not allowed to tell anyone if there are any trans members. The trans member decides where they want to sleep on residentials so we now have the situation where a teenage male is sleeping in the same tent as teenage girls at camp. Parents cannot be told that their daughters are sharing with a boy.

You could start by reading some of those threads instead of starting another one?

That would have been my thinking only a couple of months ago Maisy. That some people feel they are one man trapped inside a woman's body or vice verse. I fully believe that this truly does happen and that some men want to live as women and some women want to live as men.

But for someone to say I feel like being a women today just to obtain certain rights makes me feel sick. Do they not even realise that women don't all like the same things? You can't define a women based on the premise of 'wears dresses and eyeliner'. I wear neither and am very much female. I feel like screaming this at the fakers.

TRAs (men posing as women) can never understand female issues. These are something that become very apparent as a girl approaches puberty right through the rest of her life and no TRA male could ever have those experiences. What could they possibly understand about toxic shock syndrome, menstruation, cervical/ovarian cancer, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, menopause, etc. These are just the physical things women go through not even touching upon the societal issues.

I'm annoyed this has been allowed to happen. And no I have nothing against people who genuinely want to BE and LIVE AS the opposite sex as long as they don't harm the opposites sexes members.

Another question for anyone who thinks they may be able to answer but what will happen in the future? Do you think the equality laws will be retracted or by that point will it be one big mess?

@titchy why would asking a question about Trans issues put people off reading MN?

I think certain attitudes to the people who ask genuine questions are more off putting than the question itself. I was semi tempted to ditch this thread altogether after you and girlscout made comments, but why should I be made to feel that way when I haven't done anything to feel guilty about? Maybe take the time to be less aggressive?

No chelle I think you have misunderstood the position. Many people believe humans can't change sex and there should be no link between how someone presents and behaves and what sex they are. It should be accepted by society got a man to wear dresses and call himself Rachel, or for a woman to drive trucks and call herself Richard. It doesn't make those people change sex.

Self identification is a problem because it provides a loophole that could be exploited by some one (not trans) to get easier access to vulnerable women and children.

And categorizing people by gender means now we have males competing alongside females in sport, as if their feelings means thar their larger size, greater lung capacity and increased muscle mass won't give them a performance advantage.

No-one thinks trans people don't/shouldn't exist.

Diana keep up - I've already explained politely that I have reads the trans threads but it didn't answer my questions hence I posted this. Stop being deliberate.

Apologies, I was extremely tired, and having watch the mainstream media regurgitate that breastfeeding 'study' every where just tipped me over the edge. I'm happy to be wrong, but there is a huge amount of 'sealioning' that goes on in this debate, and I see a lot of women waste huge amount of time and energy trying to answer questions from someone who is not asking in good faith. If that's not the case here, then I stand corrected.

I've been down this rabbit hole a long, long time, and I'm at Kilimanjaro trans. I shall bow out and leave you to it.

Apology accepted girlscout I now understand why you reported. I occasionally have to step away from mumsnet and/or Facebook, and the news altogether just to try and get some balance and normality back so I understand where you're coming from. No harm done

Thanks for understanding,

I defo need a social media break, it's starting to keep me awake at night. I just read this bbc story (the BBC! No fact checking, no research, no comment from actual mothers, midwives, NOTHING) and I confess I've actually just sat and cried. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43071901

Anyway, when I can figure out how to turn notifications off for this thread, I shall be leaving you all to it and having a self care day. My dog gives no f**ks about dudes who think they're ladies :-)

Hope you find some comfort from your dog Girlscout :). Yes the news article is worrying especially this sentence:

"Researchers said this was the baby's only source of nutrition for its first six weeks, during which time her growth, feeding and bowel habits were "developmentally appropriate" - which "researchers" are these???? How is pumping a human full of drugs in order to feed a small child in any way not fucking with nature?

For anyone else who is like me and was slow to learn about the issues facing women, this thread gives some pretty useful insight and links

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I have learnt a lot this morning just from reading them especially the changes in the law and the momentum that has gathered as a result.