To think there's a valid discussion to be had about the ethics of surrogacy?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just what the title says.

I know some women become gestational surrogates out of altruism, and that in some places (not the UK) women can be paid quite a bit to be surrogates. But I still think the ethics of it is worth discussing.

I'm curious how other people see this. I worry that it's so easy for women to be exploited. And it does seem to me that there's a gendered issue here. I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is.

Ooh good luck proseccopanda how exciting!!

mustbemad yes I agree. I really don't see how you can legislate. It really is such a minefield I think it's best left alone with informal agreements locally and international surrogacy banned.

This stoy is used a lot to show how disgusting independent surrogacy is, but there is definitely more to it

I should be clear that I wasn't sharing the story to say that independent surrogacy is 'disgusting'. I am sure that there are a great many more positive stories, and it is clear that your experience has been one of those. I do think that the case quite graphically illustrates the way in which power imbalances can be used to exploit vulnerable women and that the UK system as it is currently set up is not really able to prevent that. I'm not sure that any system ever can guarantee that there won't be this kind of abuse but the current system barely even tries.

Nope user i didn't think that for a second, again apologies if my comment read that way. That story has become the centre focus for why surrogacy is bad etc, but it really doesn't delve deep enough imo. And it doesn't highlight the absolute disgrace that was the authorities, who should have stepped in somehow before they even left the country to TTC

I hope that all goes well Proseccopanda. Just on this I can imagine lots of cases of exploitation in other countries, and am sure there are situations in this country too. I can only speak from my experience though, and find it hard to see how that could happen without it becoming apparent early on. In your situation (UK fertility clinic) I am sure that's the case but e.g. imagine a situation in which strangers meet each other on the internet and make their own arrangements for the surrogate to be artificially inseminated with the sperm of an IP. In that kind of situation there is no reason to come into contact with any medical professional in the conception so no counselling, screening etc.

want2b i partially agree with you re informal agreements - i assume you mean those created outside of a designated agency? The only issue i have there is the agencies currently having far too much input. I was approached by an agency after we did the magazine article, i may try to find the email actually. It basically stated that they would match me with IPs, if i didn't like them they would match me with another set. They told me i would be paid expenses of £15k - there was no leeway in this. When i googled, the money they were charging IPs made me sick to my stomach.

I was independent, we did everything ourselves. We covered all our bases (CAFCASS checked) but it still cost my IPs a fraction of what it would had they used an agency. And had anybody paid me £15k for a TS journey i'd have felt cheap & bought tbh!!

stitchedglitch

They grew a baby, but genetically it's not theirs. I don't understand your way of thinking at all. I understand if the IPs are completely unrelated to the baby, but the surrogate is due to using her own eggs, and I get that in certain arrangements the birth mother must be recognised as the mother. But honestly I think the surrogate should lose any rights after birth if the IMs eggs have been used.

alpine where would you stand if donor eggs were used in an IVF situation? Just curious 🙂

I did say in certain circumstances. If donor eggs are used for things like IVF, then of course I can see that the birth mother needs to be legally recognised as the biological mother. But in a case where the IM is using her eggs for her own baby with a surrogate, I think she should be recognised as the mum.

See that was always my thought regarding father's being named on the BC. I don't understand why it is okay that bio dad isn't named at registration.

very interesting debate
surrogacy doesn't sit right with me, I suppose it feels like human trafficing/buying a child to me.
but I'm imterested to hear more sides to it.

Yeah, I don't get that either, other than because the surrogate is legally the 'mother' until the transfer, so husband is automatically father.
However, if I has a husband but was pregnant with my ex's baby, when the baby was born my husband wouldn't be the dad.

btw I was once approached by a couple (on a playground in a deprived area) if I would consider surrogacy for them. that freaked me out a bit tbh

brownelephant that would weird me out a bit tbh 😱

alpine i guess it falls under the marriage laws, but yep as you say, if i was married my hubby wouldn't be 'dad' - it was so much easier for me doing it as a single woman

In my case, if the bio father had been named at registration, it would have been me as the Mother and my brother as the Father...too weird 🙈😂

Do you know that never occured to me prosecco 😂😂 awkward!!

On the husband of the surrogate being recorded on the birth certificate, it's because the legislation on fertility treatment applies, specifically section 35 HFEA. This means that a woman's spouse is the legal parent of a child who is conceived through fertility treatment with donor gametes, unless it is shown that the spouse didn't consent to the treatment. There's no special provision for surrogacy so that is the position when the child is born (unless the spouse didn't consent).

If there is no artificial insemination/placement of embryo then the HFEA doesn't apply. So e.g. if you get pregnant through an affair then your DH wouldn't be the father.

User255 of course, that makes total sense and is so obvious now you mention it 🤦🏼‍♀️

Even with TS - so with no fertility treatment documented - the hubby goes down. A TS friend of mine used to get her hubby to write a letter saying he point blank refused to be named & wasn't the father. I think it worked with four of five of her journies

I have to say, I rather enjoyed seeing people's faces when I told them I was having my Brother's baby 😂

Prosecco

Your brother is the bio father of your child? Is that through donation?

Omg it's like Phoebe from Friends haha. My DD used to tell people i had a baby in my tummy but we weren't bringing it home - was priceless

Or did I read that completely wrong

Omg, you mean you're having a baby for your brother! I thought you meant you were having your own baby with your brother's sperm.

alpine Prosecco carried for her brother & SiL via GS - so IVF